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BlackBerry Battle In India Going Down To the Wire

Soulskill posted more than 4 years ago | from the rock-and-a-hard-place dept.

Security 176

crimeandpunishment writes "With just days before the deadline, BlackBerry's maker was shot down by India in its latest effort to avoid having its services cut off for about a million Indian users of the device. Research in Motion's effort to broaden the debate over data encryption were rejected. The Indian government wants access to users' emails. The head of a powerful industry group in India accused RIM of taking the wrong approach to negotiations, saying, 'It need not have escalated to this level. Folks like RIM have to understand business is done differently here.'"

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question: (1)

larry bagina (561269) | more than 4 years ago | (#33398838)

what the fuck is their fucking problem?

Re:question: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33399322)

agreed.

"It need not have escalated to this level. Folks like RIM have to understand business is done differently here."

RIM's response:

"We need not provide service to users in your country, because it would require us HANDING OVER SECURE DATA so kiss our ass."

Re:question: (2, Insightful)

mrops (927562) | more than 4 years ago | (#33400354)

"Business here is done differently".

they didn't bribe and/or bribe the right person.

It doesn't even have to be money, a few hot chicks from Montreal would have done the job. Even take pictures to blackmail pricks causing a problem.

RIM Don't cave in (2, Insightful)

ubergeek65536 (862868) | more than 4 years ago | (#33398840)

I hope they stand their ground.

Re:RIM Don't cave in (4, Insightful)

TheGratefulNet (143330) | more than 4 years ago | (#33398920)

like they 'didnt' for the saudis?

RIM is on my do-not-purchase list.

there is no ethical reason to give away your REAL customer's security.

the government is not your customer even though you sell a lot to them.

PEOPLE (who deserve privacy) are your customers.

Re:RIM Don't cave in (4, Insightful)

MachDelta (704883) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399082)

A gov't ban pretty much ensures they will have no customers to protect. Their choices are "give it up", or "GTFO."

Also, why bother boycotting them? Are you saying they never should have tried to cover their customers asses in the first place, and should have stuck with their competitions decision of not bothering with encryption? I say RIM deserves points for trying.

Re:RIM Don't cave in (1)

mrops (927562) | more than 4 years ago | (#33400384)

As far as I know, even the Saudi's have access to encrypted data only. Nonetheless, they will now have a way to map social network, e.g. terrorist suspect xyz sends a lots of messages to pqr. This may be enough for them. With no human rights as well as acceptance of torture (I lived there for a while so not making this up) they can pick both xyz and pqr in the middle of the night and drive bamboo's up orifices to get what they want.

Re:RIM Don't cave in (5, Insightful)

causality (777677) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399130)

like they 'didnt' for the saudis?

RIM is on my do-not-purchase list.

there is no ethical reason to give away your REAL customer's security.

the government is not your customer even though you sell a lot to them.

PEOPLE (who deserve privacy) are your customers.

If RIM caves, the correct response to this is to divest yourself of any stocks or funds that involve this company. If they cave, it will be because money is more important to them than the refusal to support institutionalized domestic spying, same story as always. If they cave, they would do it to preserve a profitable market. If the response to that causes their stock to be devalued and the company to have a very hard time retaining any capital, it would send the message that if you really care about profit, this is the wrong action to take.

So, like with so many things, it's up to us. It's a matter of what we will and won't tolerate, what we will and won't support and go along with. Any single-mindedness regarding profit can also be used to discourage companies from following this example. In that sense it is both the problem and a solution. Which it will be is ultimately up to us, up to We the People. If we don't care enough to back that up with action, neither should RIM.

Re:RIM Don't cave in (1, Informative)

cdrguru (88047) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399310)

Like nearly all corporations today, 99% of the stock is in either the current board of directors or institutional hands. What little is out there in private hands is meaningless. Not sure when this trend started, but every IPO I have ever heard of is all about selling to institutional investors such as pension and mutual funds.

If you are using a Blackberry without a corporate email connection, by all means drop it. However, be aware that the only customers RIM cares a hoot about are the corporate clients that simply mandate what their employees will be using and pass out the phones by the hundreds.

For example, I know the FBI is 100% Blackberry. Every agent, office worker, whatever, down to the level of janitorial supervisors. How many phones do you think that is? 10,000? 20,000? Virtually the entire Fortune 500 are going to be 100% Blackberry so you can multiply that by 500 and start to get an idea of who exactly RIM cares about. Yes, that is at least 10 million phones. The individual users are a rounding error.

Now, when upper management goes to India for a business meeting with the folks they outsourced the entire IT department to and they are told by the corporate security folks they have to leave their phones at home that might actually cause a stir. Now this would be blatently untrue - that isn't the sort of connection that the Indian government could monitor, but it would be a great scare tactic. After a couple of people hear "the Indian government is listening in" it might not take much to switch the entire company to Blackjack phones or something else like that. Now that RIM would notice.

The only people this would affect are those with email accounts accessed through their phone carrier. RIM is fully in control of the encryption there. Corporate systems using their own Blackberry server can't be affected because RIM isn't in control of the encryption at all.

Re:RIM Don't cave in (2, Insightful)

Lord Ender (156273) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399962)

Pretty much every telecom company obeys the local laws. Your advice is to divest from every telecom company? What does that accomplish?

People, S/MIME exists for a reason. India can't break it. RIM can't break it. The NSA can't break it. Get a free S/MIME cert and enjoy your privacy on ANY network.

Re:RIM Don't cave in (1)

thePowerOfGrayskull (905905) | more than 4 years ago | (#33400358)

If RIM caves, the correct response to this is to divest yourself of any stocks or funds that involve this company. If they cave, it will be because money is more important to them than the refusal to support institutionalized domestic spying, same story as always.

History seems to show that this is a sure indication that it's time to buy RIM stock ;)

Re:RIM Don't cave in (2, Insightful)

BitZtream (692029) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399278)

While I agree with you in principle, as the Indian government said, they do things differently there.

One of my other principles is to let others live their lives the way they want to. If India wants to revolt against its government to change the rules, I'll support them. However, if they aren't willing to change their governments rules or if they want the rules that way for some reason, then thats their problem not mine.

Who are you to impose you particular view of how the world should work on others? What if they are happy with their situation, even though you and I think its a raw deal?

Re:RIM Don't cave in (4, Insightful)

thePig (964303) | more than 4 years ago | (#33400032)

I am not sure whether /. users appreciate the whole situation in India.
Terrorists using blackberry is an actual problem [telegraph.co.uk] here. Also, the threat of terrorists here is a real one - unlike in most other countries - with many countries actually pouring money in to push [indiatimes.com] terrorism to India.

Before the current home minister came in with somewhat tight security and controls, we used to have a lot [wikipedia.org] of terrorist attacks in India. The current homeminister radically decreased the number of incidents by overall increasing the security - while not too much impinging on the privacy till now.

Most of the security was through surveillance, which was being hamstrung by the enemy using blackberry for communication. So by creating this hullaballoo and then RIM publicly accepting it, terrorist will stop using blackberry for communication, thus increasing the effectiveness of surveillance.

I do accept the view point of - those who gives up privacy for security deserves neither.
But terrorism is such a big actual problem here - with more than 800 sleeper cells currently, people are going to accept this - otherwise there is going to be daily bombings and deaths.

Re:RIM Don't cave in (2, Insightful)

tanveer1979 (530624) | more than 4 years ago | (#33400130)

Hmm, so you are basically saying, before blackberry came, there was no terrorism in India? Or blocking blackberry will somehow close all aveues of encryption(ssh etc.,?)
Its due to idiots like you that we hardly have any privacy left in India, and the corrupt govt officials snoop on anybody at will.

Re:RIM Don't cave in (4, Insightful)

causality (777677) | more than 4 years ago | (#33400178)

I am not sure whether /. users appreciate the whole situation in India. Terrorists using blackberry is an actual problem [telegraph.co.uk] here. Also, the threat of terrorists here is a real one - unlike in most other countries - with many countries actually pouring money in to push [indiatimes.com] terrorism to India.

Before the current home minister came in with somewhat tight security and controls, we used to have a lot [wikipedia.org] of terrorist attacks in India. The current homeminister radically decreased the number of incidents by overall increasing the security - while not too much impinging on the privacy till now.

Most of the security was through surveillance, which was being hamstrung by the enemy using blackberry for communication. So by creating this hullaballoo and then RIM publicly accepting it, terrorist will stop using blackberry for communication, thus increasing the effectiveness of surveillance.

I do accept the view point of - those who gives up privacy for security deserves neither. But terrorism is such a big actual problem here - with more than 800 sleeper cells currently, people are going to accept this - otherwise there is going to be daily bombings and deaths.

In my view of viewing things terrorism is merely a symptom of far deeper underlying problems with government and society and with international affairs. In the face of that, secure e-mail is barely a footnote. If a government can completely and totally monitor all communications by all people within its borders, it has succeeded only in addressing a means to an end. It has not and likely will not address why so many people want to become terrorists in the first place, what motivates them, why they do what they do, and how to actually prevent this phenomenon by addressing its root causes.

Nobody ever wants to really look at root causes. They're too busy making sure a good crisis "doesn't go to waste" as an Obama staffer put it (don't think for a moment that this idea is limited to USA politics). They just want to exert as much control as possible over the means to an end. They want to make terrorism as difficult as possible by those who wish to carry it out because that means more police power for them. No one seems to want to make fewer people consider becoming terrorists in the first place. Addressing the type of political and social unrest that makes once-harmless people consider such drastic measures might mean taking a hard look at foreign and domestic policy with a willingness to drastically alter the status quo towards a pro-freedom position, and no one in power really wants to do that. It would reduce their power.

I'm not saying that terrorists are something other than scum. They are. I'm saying that you are dealing with nations that, based on their actions, have the attitude of "well if we're going to have terrorism anyway, things like the USA's Patriot Act that we could have never passed without active attacks sure do sweeten the deal". That's part of the problem. Anyone who gets what they want due to terrorism, directly or indirectly, is part of the problem of terrorism. Unfortunately that includes many state actors.

RIM can die in a fire. (1)

RulerOf (975607) | more than 4 years ago | (#33400040)

While I agree with you in principle, as the Indian government said, they do things differently there.

Sorry, but the Indian gov't needs to go fuck itself.

With respect to Blackberry, the India doesn't do things differently. India wants to do things differently, and quite frankly everyone at RIM is a bunch of fucktards for giving in to the first country that decided to publicly swing its cock in their direction.

I quite personally don't give a flying fuck whether or not any government listens in on what it chooses. But I'll say for damned certain that if something is touted as "secure" and "encrypted," having a man in the middle makes that statement 100% bullshit. RIM can go die in a fire or simply remove their encryption altogether. If anyone other than the sender and recipient can read an "encrypted" message, then the shit's not encrypted by the understood sense of the term. End of story.

Re:RIM Don't cave in (1)

causality (777677) | more than 4 years ago | (#33400084)

One of my other principles is to let others live their lives the way they want to. If India wants to revolt against its government to change the rules, I'll support them. However, if they aren't willing to change their governments rules or if they want the rules that way for some reason, then thats their problem not mine.

This is not an equal situation. It's "asymmetric" to use the scrubbed "lite" term. The difference is that the government is authorized to use force to achieve its goals, like all governments. The people who use force to resist it (the only way to launch a revolt) are, by definition, criminals. This is the problem of the people of India, to be sure. My comment was intended to apply only to the extent to which corporations based in North America interact with the Indian government.

If you *really* support the right of all human beings to live their lives the way they wish (so long as they do not seek to impose their way of life on others by force or by fraud, I would add) then you would naturally oppose any government that stands in their way. In this case, that's the Indian government. Your position of complete and total indifference is untenable if you wish to remain consistent with your stated principles.

Re:RIM Don't cave in (1, Redundant)

PsychoSlashDot (207849) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399412)

RIM's in a no-win situation here.

If they abide by the laws of the land and provide the government of India access to Indian citizens' communications they're removing privacy from those citizens. Thing is that according to the Indian government their citizens aren't evidently entitled to that privacy. So RIM can "cave in" and abide by the Indian officials' demands but at the cost of a moral high-ground. Citizens lose, government wins, RIM maintains status quo.

If they refuse to "cave in", they get shut down and those very same citizens have to buy new phones from wonderful vendors like Apple and the government will tap those communications. Citizens lose, government wins, RIM loses customers.

So really, what should they do?

Re:RIM Don't cave in (0)

TheGratefulNet (143330) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399620)

what should they do?

well, what kind of people are they that run that company? do they care about fellow man? a little or a lot? do they claim to have any moral code that guides their everyday ethical behavior?

or are they like all the other companies that are in it 'for this quarter and next' ?

I pretty much know this answer, as I've been alive long enough to know how things work.

but it sure would be nice to have a company (in this powerful position) say "sorry, but the keys do not belong to you and quite frankly, you don't deserve to listen in on ANYONE's conversation"

and yes, I fully mean that absolutely. even 'bad guys' should have the same right to communicate. afterall, some 200 years ago, americans were 'the bad guys' according to england.

quite a double standard to say that we were 'right' to fight our oppressing country for freedom but that no one else (in the modern world) can have the same.

wiretapping is ALWAYS wrong. ALWAYS. just like air and water are human rights, so is the right to communicate.

do not ever think its 'ok' for a country to listen in. bad bad bad idea, in all cases. first they say its ok to listen in on 'only bad guys' but then the definition slowly enlarges until everyone meets that condition.

I dream of a world with no spying. AT ALL.

Re:RIM Don't cave in (1)

dgatwood (11270) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399826)

Except that unless you limit it to Indian MobileMe users, no matter how you threaten them, Apple cannot feasibly provide the same service to the Indian government. The only reason RIM can is that all the email data going to your phone is stored by RIM's servers. In effect, RIM is acting as an ISP operating in India. All a user has to do is NOT use an Indian ISP and NOT use any other ISP that has agreed to their demands and that user will have encryption without government eavesdropping. It's such a low technical hurdle that the Indian government must be a bunch of complete idiots if they honestly think that terrorists or other bad people won't be capable of figuring it out....

Thus, in effect, RIM's choices are really:

  • Cave in, get sued by many of their business customers, and lose many more of their customers to ISPs with mail servers in other countries, then kick back and watch as people slowly dump their hardware for iPhones and Droids once they are no longer tied down to Blackberry's mail service. The government will then go after other companies like Google for the same concessions, but will either fail miserably or will drive users to less centralized services and then fail miserably. The end result is Epic FAIL for India's attempt to eavesdrop, but RIM loses big time.
  • Stop being an ISP in India, make small businesses support their own email without using RIM's servers (bigger ones already do, AFAIK), and provide non-business users with the means to migrate to another mail service like Gmail. Then the government has to go after tens of thousands of ISPs individually. Kick back and watch as non-business users slowly dump their hardware for iPhones and Droids once they are no longer tied down to Blackberry's mail service. Again, Epic FAIL for India's attempt to eavesdrop, and again RIM loses pretty badly, but not quite as badly.
  • Draw a line in the sand and refuse to cooperate. Then, MAYBE India will shut them down, but their highly wealthy customers will throw a massive fit and the government will back down.

I know which one I'd choose if I were in RIM's position. Standing up means risking a complete loss immediately with at least some possibility of continuing to do business ethically, whereas backing down is almost a guarantee of a nearly complete loss (at least of your business customers), but spread over a longer period. Thus, RIM really has little to lose by betting it all and telling India's government to get bent. Either way, caving in clearly isn't a viable option---not for RIM and not for the rest of the companies on the Internet. RIM made their bed through a fundamentally flawed mail delivery architecture. Now they have to lie in it.

Re:RIM Don't cave in (2, Insightful)

causality (777677) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399042)

I hope they stand their ground.

No joke. From the summary:

'It need not have escalated to this level. Folks like RIM have to understand business is done differently here.'

Sure. And if someone installed live cameras that monitor your bedroom and your bathroom 24/7, well that would just be "different" from the privacy you now enjoy.

It's like Aesop said: "any excuse will serve a tyrant."

Re:RIM Don't cave in (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33399308)

If I had big dick like hindus I would not care if they watch my bathroom at all.

Re:RIM Don't cave in (1)

russotto (537200) | more than 4 years ago | (#33400282)

"Business is done differently here" is a code phrase. Usually a code phrase for graft, though.

RIM needs to make a decision (3, Insightful)

SteelRat (11640) | more than 4 years ago | (#33398846)

Do they want to secure customer data, or provide a documented mechanism for institutional wiretaps.

They should pick one and stick with it.

Re:RIM needs to make a decision (1)

stephanruby (542433) | more than 4 years ago | (#33400196)

No, they just want their emails/texts to stop being routed through the NSA's white-anglo Echelon program, they're just too afraid to say it openly. In 2007, France wasn't that shy about their complaints against RIM, the French government asserted that the US/UK/Canadian/Australian spying coalition was obtaining French corporate trade secrets that it could only have gotten through the RIM network (and considering the interesting anecdotes of the French leaking false information everywhere like the false plans of their planes and helicopters to everybody and their mother, it's not that far fetched to assume that (1) their claims against RIM are also completely made up (may be that's what they do, they're compulsive liars?) and they're trying to damage an Anglo-Canadian company or (2) that they identified the RIM leak by leaking easily identifiable false information through there as well and that's why they believe that the leak came from there.

So considering those two equally possible scenarios, and the fact that the European Union has also taken the prudent approach of also believing France's claims, it may also be prudent for other countries (that the US is also interested in) to also turn off all the traffic that gets unnecessarily routed through RIM's own proprietary servers on UK/US/Canadian/Australian soil (after all, phones like Nokia and Android can also do very strong end-to-end encryption, but it's not like those platforms force their traffic to go through any hub in particular). On those platforms, you're not forced to use gmail's/sms servers if you don't want to, and you're not forced to use Ovi/Nokia's mail/sms servers if you don't want to. And the same goes with the iPhone, the instant an SMS/email leaves your iPhone it's not absolutely necessary that it gets routed through Apple's own proprietary servers (just like for every email that leaves your Windows-powered computer, it's not absolutely necessary that all those emails go through Microsoft's proprietary servers either).

Am I missing something here? (4, Interesting)

TejWC (758299) | more than 4 years ago | (#33398860)

Ok, the Indian government can tell Blackberry to give up its keys for a particular encryption layer, but what is to stop people from using RSA 512-bit encryption with their e-mails? Wouldn't this force terrorists to pay attention to what encryption methods they are using?

Re:Am I missing something here? (3, Insightful)

MightyMartian (840721) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399122)

Look pal, are you some kind of terrorist? Decent law abiding non-terrorist people don't use encryption. In fact, they send the contents of their inboxes to the authorities to make sure that they aren't inadvertently planning terrorist acts. Only evil bastards want encryption. Foul wicked scum who should be, and will be I promise you, taken out and shot, but not before torture... oh blessed torture... we'll attach battery cables to their testicles and drop vinegar in their eyeballs... oh yes... and as we strip them and kick them and dump water on them... oooh aahhhhhh

Things are done differently here... I tell you... ooooh sooooo diffferently....

Re:Am I missing something here? (1)

bsDaemon (87307) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399142)

The criminals and terrorists are probably already doing that. The corporate businessman might be. The casual user most likely just assumes RIM is taking care of it and doesn't worry, and its them that's going to get shafted by number 2, allegedly in the course of fighting number 1.

Well there are two things to this (1)

Sycraft-fu (314770) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399200)

One is that terrorism is kind of a bullshit excuse. India just wants the ability to easily monitor e-mails without any sort of oversight. It is an excuse not a reason to a large extent.

HOWEVER, you do find that people will often take the easy way out and just use what is included. I'm sure in your daily life you meet many people who understand fuck-all about security. Guess what? Terrorists are just people. They do not tend to have good central IT groups that enforce good standards on the organizations. They don't always know about this shit.

Re:Am I missing something here? (3, Insightful)

Mr Thinly Sliced (73041) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399230)

Enough already with the scaredy tactics and mentioning of terrorists.

Seriously, what happened with people's right to privacy?

I'm sick and tired of this fear culture impinging on what I can and cannot do.

And yes, I've lived through the IRA bombings in the iron mile in central London, so I am aware totally of "idiots" out there.

I couldn't give a crap if they have encryption. Boo hoo if it makes the police's job difficult.

Re:Am I missing something here? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33399470)

In short, yes you're missing something. The standard method of sending encrypted email such as tools like PGP or OpenPGP, GPG, etc, can encrypt the BODY of the email, but not the SUBJECT or WHO the email is being SENT TO. /Who/ you are emailing is at least as interesting as /what/ the content of the email is.

Re:Am I missing something here? (1)

0123456 (636235) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399492)

what is to stop people from using RSA 512-bit encryption with their e-mails?

I suspect the government would be quite happy to see people using 512-bit RSA because it's easy to crack... possibly even trivial with modern hardware.

4096-bit RSA, on the other hand, will still be secure for quite some time.

Re:Am I missing something here? (1)

rxan (1424721) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399552)

This is so true. In fact the BlackBerry already provides a breadth of cryptography APIs. Making an app that allows secure communication, even on an insecure network, is effortless.

Sounds like RIM is better than the governments. (2, Insightful)

sethstorm (512897) | more than 4 years ago | (#33398862)


"With just days before the deadline, BlackBerry's maker was shot down by India in its latest effort to avoid having its services cut off for about a million Indian users of the device. Research in Motion's effort to broaden the debate over data encryption were rejected. The Indian government wants access to users' emails.

Keep their hands off the emails.


The head of a powerful industry group in India accused RIM of taking the wrong approach to negotiations, saying, 'It need not have escalated to this level. Folks like RIM have to understand business is done differently here.'

So if they had to do something that was a crime that would be punished in Canada to be compliant with India, it's excusable?

Re:Sounds like RIM is better than the governments. (5, Informative)

mjwalshe (1680392) | more than 4 years ago | (#33398918)

"business is done differently here."

sounds like a shakedown for a bribe to me

Re:Sounds like RIM is better than the governments. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33399016)

Not really. Business really _is_ done differently in India, especially with the Government. They ought to have agreed in principle and then taken matters forward. Instead they decided to begin with a disagreement and then things quickly started looking bad for them.

Bribes would have helped, but they would have helped in any country, not just India.

Re:Sounds like RIM is better than the governments. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33399516)

Also hookers and dancing girls. Which if my knowledge of Bollywood is correct are the same thing.

Re:Sounds like RIM is better than the governments. (1)

PopeRatzo (965947) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399414)

"business is done differently here."

In other words, "Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown".

Re:Sounds like RIM is better than the governments. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33398926)

So if they had to do something that was a crime that would be punished in Canada to be compliant with India, it's excusable?
--

absolutely, if it isn't a crime in the jurisdiction they'd be doing it, what is the fucking problem? societies differ, laws differ.

or is the ridiculous Pendostan idea that US law rules everywhere is now pan-American?

Re:Sounds like RIM is better than the governments. (1)

phyrexianshaw.ca (1265320) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399424)

until you get into the shoes of a company that sells equipment designed for deep packet inspection to a country that uses it to oppress it's people, then get sued by your own country for selling something that's perfectly legal in the country you sold it in.

unfortunately, you have to respect EVERYONE these days. or somebody will get a treaty signed that makes what you did illegal, and try to sue you for it anyways.

Re:Sounds like RIM is better than the governments. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33399808)

ololololo, fascinating, but not really. in fact, "business" even isn't done that much differently in the india.

just as in the us, or canada, the decision whom to sue (or prevent from exporting, etc.) has NOTHING at all to do with oppression of people, it has only to do with immediate political expediency plus what the other party can do to you in return.

if you keep yourself well-connected and informed on the political expediencies of your home regime, you can pretend to satisfy customers, give the government what it wants, and prosper.

i assume you're insinuating about the US cases against Iran (which are not by the government btw), but look ma, the Echelon countries, the Wahhabi Arabia, the Chinar and the ex-USSR (among many others) are doing the same thing wrt their populations, with gear from all the same Western companies.

anyone getting sued about it? nope, because sales are big, relations are good, and, in general, no one wants to rock the boat, or limit options on oppression.

the occasional outburst of condemnation against the designated enemy of the day (always a weak and isolated nation) happens just to placate you, the conscientious slashdotter, a bit.

Re:Sounds like RIM is better than the governments. (1)

PopeRatzo (965947) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399292)

So if they had to do something that was a crime that would be punished in Canada to be compliant with India, it's excusable?

I don't think for a minute that RIM wouldn't rather give it's customer data to any government that asks for it. Their only problem with it is one of public relations. RIM would prefer to be able to do whatever they want with their customers' data, including sell it to the highest bidder. They're just afraid that the people that give them money for their phones wouldn't like it.

It's a big mistake to try to paint any of these corporations as being anything but willing participants in any violation of personal privacy. If you were to ask a RIM lawyer, they'd probably say that they own any data that they carry. Sometime in the next five years, we're going to see this argument made by telecoms, too. Of course, they don't actually plan to use that data, until they do.

I would say the same thing applies to Apple and its iTunes and Google and maybe even Skype. Of course it's ridiculous, of course it's outrageous, but we live in an age where corporations are making more and more outrageous demands and getting away with it. They know the game is up and they're in charge. Governments are just speed bumps to the transnational corporations. Just look at how well BP is honoring its commitment to the Americans that it made after it took a shit in the Gulf of Mexico. We are going to live through an age of amazing changes to our concept of privacy and personal integrity and freedom, and it governments will only be acting as the agents of the transnational corporations. You only have to look at the way a handful of financial institutions have raided the treasuries of the US and EU countries. Call them "bailouts" if you want, but it was basically these bank holding companies saying, very nicely, "give us all of the money or else".

I'm going to make a wild prediction (5, Insightful)

straponego (521991) | more than 4 years ago | (#33398868)

RIM will capitulate, like they have everywhere else.

Re:I'm going to make a wild prediction (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33399058)

Yes, they would serve their customers better by simply closing up shop.

Re:I'm going to make a wild prediction (2, Insightful)

straponego (521991) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399120)

Yes, because the only alternative to instantly obeying any desire of any government is suicide.

Re:I'm going to make a wild prediction (2, Interesting)

causality (777677) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399244)

Yes, because the only alternative to instantly obeying any desire of any government is suicide.

The desired outcome is that countries like India have a choice:

1) Fail to respect the rights and the privacy of your citizens
-- or --
2) Benefit from trading with first-world nations that are more prosperous and more technologically advanced

This is perfectly acceptable unless you are prepared to argue that a principled company should be forced to do business with foreign nations against its will.

Besides, India is not RIM's only market. No longer doing business in India would mean less profit. It would not mean no profit. It is not a "corporate suicide" scenario. It's more like a scenario of "which is more important to us: our integrity, or a few more points added to our stock price?"

Re:I'm going to make a wild prediction (1)

causality (777677) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399274)

Not crazy about replying to myself, but I wanted to add something.

What I'd like to see would not be bullying of India in any way. It's simply a mutual agreement or a lack thereof.

RIM could say "as a soverign nation, you don't *have to* respect the privacy of your citizens, just like we don't *have to* do business with you. You could always develop your own domestic industry that operates in a way you find more tasteful and we won't lift a finger to try to stop you."

It would not be bullying because it does not involve the use of force or fraud.

Re:I'm going to make a wild prediction (2, Insightful)

Lobachevsky (465666) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399898)

I'm sure the argument works both ways.

1) Fail to respect the laws and regulations of a democratic country
-- or --
2) Benefit from trading with the 2nd largest mobile market in the world (635 million cell phones in India - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_in_India [wikipedia.org] )

Besides, RIM is not India's only cell phone provider. No longer doing business with RIM would mean fewer choices. It would not mean no choice. It is not a "economic suicide" scenario. It's more like a scenario of "which is more important to us: our laws, or a few more phone models added to our stores?"

Re:I'm going to make a wild prediction (1)

straponego (521991) | more than 4 years ago | (#33400312)

Um, I'm not sure if you meant to reply to me or the parent. I do agree that there is substantial middle ground (just like Google's situation in China). That's what I was getting at. I was responding to the AC's sarcastic straw man in kind.

Re:I'm going to make a wild prediction (1)

laughingcoyote (762272) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399920)

Actually, they very well might.

If they're not willing to take a stand on this, most of their customers probably don't know the difference. If they do decide to stand up, they give India one of two choices:

  • Behave like a democratic government instead of a tinpot dictatorship, in which case this quietly goes away. No, they don't get to monitor, but secure methods of communication exist anyway. One more makes no difference.
  • Force RIM to stop operations over this-and explain to tens of millions of the most powerful and influential people in the country that you took their Blackberries away because RIM wouldn't allow invasion of your privacy.

So yes, in this case, they do serve their customers well by calling what's likely a bluff. India is desperate for development. They're not going to alienate their elite over something like this.

Re:I'm going to make a wild prediction (1)

cabinboy (69917) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399910)

RIM doesn't have the encryption keys to data traveling over individual BES servers, so they will not cave and couldn't even if they wanted too.

Greed vs Ethics (1, Troll)

decipher_saint (72686) | more than 4 years ago | (#33398872)

I wonder which side will win...

Re:Greed vs Ethics (1)

dgatwood (11270) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399842)

The only thing certain when it comes to dealing with businesses and government is that in the end, we lose.

as if (1, Interesting)

liquidpele (663430) | more than 4 years ago | (#33398896)

As if I needed another reason to avoid doing business with India.

Re:as if (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33399174)

You make it sound like you had plans in the first place, fellow basement dweller.

Re:as if (1)

liquidpele (663430) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399596)

My house doesn't have a basement :(

Re:as if (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33399924)

ah, a trailer? well, at least you're "mobile" ... or would be if you can re-attach the wheels that is.

Re:as if (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33399242)

The difference is that India openly says it wants a backdoor to the communication. In the US, the government will get one without all this fuss. So have you stopped doing business with the US? How about UK? Didn't think so.

Frankly, no, I don't understand. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33398904)

'Folks like RIM have to understand business is done differently here.'

Laws Of Physics, India Edition? What?

Re:Frankly, no, I don't understand. (1)

Meshach (578918) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399028)

In India the government wants to have access to all communication to "obstruct and prevent terrorism". There is no "Bill of Rights" in India that grants the freedoms that exist in America and other countries. To do business in India you have to let the government have access. If you do not let them have access you cannot do business.

What is there not to understand?

Re:Frankly, no, I don't understand. (5, Insightful)

saihung (19097) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399136)

First of all, that's rubbish. Articles 19, 20, 21 and 22 of the Constitution of India guarantee most of the same freedoms that people in any other democracy enjoy.

As for this move, we understand their position, but we think it's wrong. Or is the concept of critical analysis too difficult?

Re:Frankly, no, I don't understand. (1)

webminer (1619915) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399190)

There are "Bill of Rights" in India. They are called "Fundamental Rights". Indian society in general is free and govt doesnt really invade privacy atleast not on the level that US govt does. Our enforcement systems might be lax but that doesnt mean there is a systemic effort to invade privacy. RIM was happy to comply with similar restrictions in US, China and Saudi Arabia. But when it comes to India, they had to show arrogance? India is a huge market. If RIM wants to survive in India, they better comply with Indian govt orders. Indian mobile users have tons of choices and India market is one of the most competitive markets in the world. India does not need RIM. OTOH, RIM does!

Re:Frankly, no, I don't understand. (1)

Skapare (16644) | more than 4 years ago | (#33400378)

The US government is getting some info from RIM, but it does not include getting copies of email. BB is popular among foreigners coming to India to do business. If RIM is cut off, this will hurt India's ability to do business with the rest of the world that doesn't have this approach to government.

Asymmetric Encryption (1)

Nautical Insanity (1190003) | more than 4 years ago | (#33398958)

Why should RIM even have the encryption keys? If they really wanted their customer's information to be secure, wouldn't they implement RSA in their communications? That way when governments come knocking, they can just say "Sorry, but these aren't the encryption keys you're looking for."

Re:Asymmetric Encryption (1)

Golddess (1361003) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399134)

As I understand it from some RIM stories in the past, an organization could host their own servers that their blackberries talk to, and RIM would have zero access to be able to decrypt the contents in that case.

Re:Asymmetric Encryption (1)

Nautical Insanity (1190003) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399220)

So essentially RIM advertises its phones on the basis of security, but they choose to forgo a better encryption scheme because they would not have exclusive control of the network the phones use?

Weak.

Re:Asymmetric Encryption (1)

phyrexianshaw.ca (1265320) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399502)

ummmnm, what?

have you ever owned a RIM device?
they do a pretty good job of security. but yes, if you have a blackberry with an e-mail account from your provider, the mailstore is at RIM. as much as you may not like RIM keeping your keys, they might need to get into your mailbox to repair/troubleshoot/help you.

if you really want secure BB's, host a BES server, and you control the end to end encryption between phones and server. (and if you do so in india, you STILL need to provide a method to the government to allow workers access to all your mailboxes. it's a punishable offense (read they will come take your equipment, some of your people, and hand the business itself massive fines) to withhold ANY information from them for any reason.)

Re:Asymmetric Encryption (1)

Skapare (16644) | more than 4 years ago | (#33400390)

Put the servers in Sweden.

Re:Asymmetric Encryption (1)

sjames (1099) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399416)

If they took the simple step of pushing that out to the device itself, none of this would be an issue now.

Because it is e-mail to their servers (1)

Sycraft-fu (314770) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399374)

Near as I can tell this is all about the Blackberry Enterprise Server stuff. While organizations can run their own, RIM also runs it and you can subscribe to it. It encrypts communications from them to your phone and back, but then they have to decrypt it to be able to send it via e-mail. It isn't an end-to-end setup, BES is just an e-mail communication link for Blackberries.

Re:Because it is e-mail to their servers (1)

rxan (1424721) | more than 4 years ago | (#33400306)

Yup, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Re:Because it is e-mail to their servers (1)

Skapare (16644) | more than 4 years ago | (#33400414)

Does it use IMAPS?

Huh? RIM needs to understand? (2, Insightful)

Fallen Kell (165468) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399022)

I think India needs to understand that for a service like RIM's if the people purchasing it can't trust it to carry their own private thoughts/conversations, then people won't pay for the service anyway. It isn't a matter of security or not, it is a matter of privacy vs big brother government. I can respect that India has issues with terrorist acts and is in a geo-political volatile area with respect to their neighbor nations. But shutting down RIM's business because India doesn't have cart-blanc access to any email sent over the devices doesn't really do anything in terms of actual security as there are thousands of other ways to send the same information securely, including but not limited to free internet email systems, to even setting up their own private email server (which takes all of 1 hour to do) and running it out of a home or even a laptop, using any of the dozens of free dynamic dns systems available.

Re:Huh? RIM needs to understand? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33399090)

* You need access to an ISP if you want to send email through your private mail server. ISPs are bound to give out customer information to governments
* Free email providers (Google, Yahoo, etc.) around bound to give out customer information to governments

RIM refused to do this under any circumstances. Now do you see the difference?

Re:Huh? RIM needs to understand? (1)

sjames (1099) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399594)

Yes, but if they can choose their client software, they can use their own strong encryption. All the free providers would be able to turn over is a fake identity and strongly encrypted messages.

It's a bit of a hassle for the (theoretical) terrorists but it's hardly insurmountable. It's also a big PITA to business users that simply wanted a decent level of security and no Big Brother.

Re:Huh? RIM needs to understand? (3, Informative)

pankajmay (1559865) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399682)

I think India needs to understand that for a service like RIM's if the people purchasing it can't trust it to carry their own private thoughts/conversations, then people won't pay for the service anyway...matter of privacy vs big brother government... I can respect that India has issues with terrorist acts and is in a geo-political volatile area... there are thousands of other ways to send the same information securely, including but not limited to free internet email systems, to even setting up their own private email server...dozens of free dynamic dns systems available.

I agree with what you say. Coming from India, let me add the following perspectives:

  1. What you say is absolutely correct, however the Indian bureaucracy is legendary for its arrogant and corrupt ways. In fact, the closing statement of the article "... business is done here differently." should provide an invaluable insight. This is why most outsiders scratch their heads about how India functions. Above all, following protocols is a big thing in India. You have to navigate things in a very particular way -- grease and please everyone along the way and in a very rigid protocol. Follow that, and the merit of your case actually plays a very small role in getting you the meat. Ignore it, and even if you are the most qualified by a wide margin, you will be left outside.
  2. Finally, the actual issue of the case is left far behind -- the bureaucracy will convert this into a nationalist patriotic jingoism (for example: RIM is being arrogant towards India.. blah...blah... discrimination...), once this happens (it already has to a certain extent) -- the conservative people will take the stage with rhetoric. Logic, reasoning, and sane questioning will be thrown out of the window.

It is sad, but unless the intellectuals in India start demanding more share of limelight and direct the discussion for its merit, I can only see a couple of options for RIM -- bend to the will and follow the sick protocol OR butt out and be made a public enemy in the eyes of the populace.

Re:Huh? RIM needs to understand? (1)

Skapare (16644) | more than 4 years ago | (#33400350)

Another point that needs to be made is that foreign businesses doing business in India with Indian businesses will be at greater risk, and that can hurt the business. Sure, things are done different in India. They are different elsewhere when compared to India, too. It's the international business where one party is in India that will suffer. And there is also the perception that the corruption involved puts that very data they capture at risk, potentially leaking it to competitors for more of those handouts.

Re:Huh? RIM needs to understand? (1)

Malc (1751) | more than 4 years ago | (#33400054)

Or maybe it's just protectionism and they want to make things hard for RIM in an effort to develop some home grown alternative.

RIM has to hold its ground here (1)

deisama (1745478) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399032)

Blackberry's biggest strength is its secure email. That's why so many corporations allow it. Assuring paranoid corporate people that their email is safe with them is practically their entire business model!

I can't imagine it would be worth ruining that reputation just to keep such a small part of their market.

Take away that, and all they have left is their little keyboards.

Re:RIM has to hold its ground here (1)

kevinmenzel (1403457) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399076)

To be fair, their little keyboards combined with unlimited push data is why I actually have a blackberry...

business is done differently there (4, Informative)

ciaran_o_riordan (662132) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399086)

> business is done differently here.

Yeh, that's a funny thing. In Europe, we spent seven years building a movement and fighting software patents. In India, they were proposed, and fought over for three weeks, and discussed in the media for maybe one week, and the government retracted the software patents proposal.

The issue isn't over, but things are certainly done different over there. I discussed it with some locals there and they told me that foreign interference doesn't go down well. Not at all. Red Hat sent a letter to the Indian government saying that software patents are dumb. (Well done Red Hat! You were our only supporter!) Locals told me that Red Hat took a chance with that letter. Other companies that try too hard to pressure the government get kicked out.

The software patent battle there is still in progress there, but foreigners should be wary of their preconceptions of how lobbying is done.

Re:business is done differently there (1)

insufflate10mg (1711356) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399396)

Are we going to start seeing your shameless self-promotion on every story now?

Re:business is done differently there (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33399710)

If you mean "information from people directly involved", then yeh, I'm happy to say you'll see more of that. Enjoy yourself!

(Me, reply as anonymous because this topic doesn't merit the +1 modifier of logged-in posted)

Militants (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33399100)

From article:

The government says it is concerned that militants could misuse the services to create instability.

Maybe that's a good thing, if the government is behaving like this.

Globalization - not understood (1)

X_DARK_X (1881648) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399176)

I think someone needs to teach these countries that Globalization doesn't mean you get to pick and choose those attributes of trade which fit your needs best. It's a model, get with it, or get off the train. Seriously, why are we sharing all our technology with these shady countries? Oh yeah capitalism, and slow as shit Pentagon. Don't complain the world is filling with despots when we aren't willing to regulate the chips supplied to North Korea, or the control over technology we give to shady governments like India and China.

Re:Globalization - not understood (1)

webminer (1619915) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399282)

You are sharing enough arms technology to despot and shady countries like Pakistan. NK acquired nukes thanks to Pakistan. US turned a blind eye to this proliferation because it needed Pakistan to continue their games in Afghanistan and central Asia. Every country looks out for its own interest. India and China are no different. If you dont like their laws, don't do business there. I would dare US govt. to try the sanctions on India and China that you are proposing. Lets see how US companies will react!

Tough Call (2, Insightful)

mandelbr0t (1015855) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399338)

As a Canadian, I'm happy to see RIM's success thus far, and obviously continued growth would need to take advantage of other markets, who have different laws. While it's not something RIM wants to do, I think they will eventually cave to India's demands.

I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, RIM is in business, not politics. It is not their place to try and change things in India, it is the Indians'. On the other hand, to be ethical, they cannot knowingly place responsibility on a different authority if it is known that they will then act unethically. Ultimately, I think it will be better for the Canadian IT market if RIM just holds their nose and makes it happen. This is simply not a battle they can, or should win. If Indians don't like the way their government treats their privacy, they need to change things themselves.

Re:Tough Call (1)

Shados (741919) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399408)

The catch is blackberries in india are, i assume, used a lot for outsourcing. I'm not sure north american IT companies that do business with indians would be too happy about this, either. So in that case, it would be an issue that directly affects local business.

Re:Tough Call (1)

rsborg (111459) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399536)

I'm not sure north american IT companies that do business with indians would be too happy about this, either. So in that case, it would be an issue that directly affects local business.

So RIM gets to lose all of it's business because it's customers want it to provide something that a regional government will not allow?

Perhaps those customers should think about outsourcing in general. The Chinese have been doing this forever, and I'm surprised RIM is going to wall here.

Re:Tough Call (1)

neuro-commando (1888256) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399690)

This is simply not a battle they can, or should win. If Indians don't like the way their government treats their privacy, they need to change things themselves.

I agree with you here. The governments concerns do sound legitimate, as far as terrorist groups go, but I'm not sure if it's to the point that they need to strip every blackberry owner of their rights. Personally, I'm all for privacy, and you're right, if the Indians want to have their privacy respected, they need to make a stand and be willing to take the risks associated with it.

Difference in perception regarding terrorism (1)

webminer (1619915) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399476)

There is huge difference in the way Indians perceive terrorism when compared to Americans. Americans easily dismiss govt. efforts such as these in the name of privacy invasion. But, when you are closer to getting your ass bombed by a neighborhood terrorist, then privacy is the last thing on your mind. You will be actually grateful that your govt is pulling all stops to giving terrorist easy options to communicate and escape their radar. Terrorism in India is daily reality. Its more direct. US has not faced a terror attack on its soil since 2001. India, OTOH, faces a huge terror attack every year (remember 26/11 Mumbai), in addition to attacks in Kashmir every other day. So, when Indians look at this issue, its much less about invasion of privacy and much more about security and closing gaps for insurgents (Maoists) and terrorists from across the border. Most of the intelligence attack trawthed by Indian Intelligence agencies are through wiretaps and intercepts of mobile calls between terrorists and their handlers across the border in Kashmir. So, from the point of Indian Intelligence agencies, its very important to intercept RIM calls as well. When you are faced with fear that the daily metro train you take to office might be blown off or that restaurant you visit for dinner might be attacked by gunmen, privacy invasion is the last thing on your mind. I am an Indian and have gone through such moments in my life. And I very well understand what my govt. is trying to do here!

Re:Difference in perception regarding terrorism (2, Insightful)

dgatwood (11270) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399934)

There is huge difference in the way Indians perceive terrorism when compared to Americans. Americans easily dismiss govt. efforts such as these in the name of privacy invasion. But, when you are closer to getting your ass bombed by a neighborhood terrorist, then privacy is the last thing on your mind. You will be actually grateful that your govt is pulling all stops to giving terrorist easy options to communicate and escape their radar. Terrorism in India is daily reality. Its more direct. US has not faced a terror attack on its soil since 2001. India, OTOH, faces a huge terror attack every year (remember 26/11 Mumbai), in addition to attacks in Kashmir every other day. So, when Indians look at this issue, its much less about invasion of privacy and much more about security and closing gaps for insurgents (Maoists) and terrorists from across the border.

Has it ever occurred to you that the very environment of fear and distrust is what breeds terrorism in the first place and that one of the reasons that the U.S. has had few terrorist attacks is that the vast majority of the public as a whole doesn't feel like the government is out to get them? We get to know our neighbors, and for the most part, if a neighbor were hatching a terrorist plot, usually somebody would notice. We do that because we know that the only thing standing between us and anarchy or tyranny is ourselves. Historically, the closer any country has come to being a police state, beyond a certain point, the more problems they have had. It's a vicious cycle, and the harder you try to clamp down, the more violent the dissent, until it becomes uncontrollable. That's basic psychology, really.

Most of the intelligence attack trawthed by Indian Intelligence agencies are through wiretaps and intercepts of mobile calls between terrorists and their handlers across the border in Kashmir. So, from the point of Indian Intelligence agencies, its very important to intercept RIM calls as well. When you are faced with fear that the daily metro train you take to office might be blown off or that restaurant you visit for dinner might be attacked by gunmen, privacy invasion is the last thing on your mind. I am an Indian and have gone through such moments in my life. And I very well understand what my govt. is trying to do here!

It would take any competent user all of five minutes to get around this. All you have to do is use an IMAP mail service other than RIM's. The people who care about using push email are not the terrorists. They are the businesses that employ your citizens. The terrorists couldn't give a rat's ass about push email. They use it because it is there. The second they get wind that RIM is going to make all their email available, they will migrate their data to Gmail, delete all their email, and close their accounts. By the time RIM actually capitulates, any information the Indian government could possibly hope to obtain will have long since been destroyed. And when the Indian government goes after Gmail, they'll move to Yahoo Mail. And when they go after Yahoo Mail, they'll move to something else. It's so easy to change ISPs that it is utterly naive to think that what you're talking about will have ANY real impact on terrorism.

You can't stop terrorism by screwing over everyone else. That just makes your citizens angry and resentful of the government. And after long enough, those angry, resentful citizens decide to take up arms. Then, a terrorist cell is born.

Done differently? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33399538)

"Business is done differently here."

Baksheesh? [wikipedia.org]

LOLWUT (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33399582)

I hope people realize we should stop outsourcing to India then.

Folks like indians have to understand (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#33399674)

Folks like indians have to understand that I might seem them something only on terms I find favorable. So if you don't want to buy what I sell at my terms, then I don't want to sell it.

With a few exceptions the indians should learn to accept other cultures not enforced on them by force (like the colonial times).

Sleeper cells.. (1)

achyuta (1236050) | more than 4 years ago | (#33399740)

.. of terrorists who are planning attacks are embedded in every corner of India.

It is several times worse than all of the spy or terrorist networks in the US combined.

When you're in the situation India is, already with the incompetent politicians hindering critical issues like national security, you'll realize you don't want an external blocker to your ways of preventing terrorism.

If Indian businesses cannot operate securely ... (1)

Skapare (16644) | more than 4 years ago | (#33400268)

... then lots of businesses outside of India will need to stop doing business with businesses located in India. It can hurt Indian business by doing this.

Re:If Indian businesses cannot operate securely .. (1)

lazycam (1007621) | more than 4 years ago | (#33400418)

I agree. Many US, EU, and Asian companies have joint ventures with Indian firms. If blackberry communications are no longer privileged, the government (and others) has a strong incentive abuse corporate information (trading trading stocks and bonds in London or the US). Companies count on Blackberry for the integration and PRIVACY. Guess Indian firms will have to rely on PGP encrypted email communication. I'm assuming this is not illegal in India, or is it?
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