Beta

Slashdot: News for Nerds

×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

With the Surface Pro, Microsoft Is Trying To Recreate the PC Market

Soulskill posted about 2 months ago | from the can't-lose-if-you-don't-fight dept.

Microsoft 379

An anonymous reader writes "An opinion piece at ReadWriteWeb makes an interesting suggestion: Microsoft's efforts in the tablet market aren't aimed at competing with the iPad or any of the Android tablets, but rather inventing a new facet of the PC market — one Microsoft alone is targeting. Quoting: 'Microsoft wants everyone to think the Surface Pro 3 is a tablet, but its pricing gives the game away. Microsoft wants to recreate the lucrative PC market that made the company billions of dollars by repackaging a PC into tablet clothing and then hammering away at the Surface product line until everybody believes that PCs never really went anywhere, they just got a touchscreen and a cellular connection.' This is also supported by the lack of a smaller Surface tablet, which many analysts were predicting before this week's press conference. Microsoft is clearly not pursuing the tablet-for-everyone approach, but instead focusing on users who want productivity out of their mobile computing device. The Surface Pros are expensive, but Microsoft is hoping people will balance that cost against the cost of a work laptop plus a personal tablet."

cancel ×

379 comments

Go die (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47067191)

Please just die Microsoft. The world doesn't need your bloatware anymore.

Re:Go die (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47067269)

You really don't understand how much good they have done as well, do you?

Re:Go die (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47067285)

What good have they done?

Re:Go die (0, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47067621)

For one, though you will undoubtedly disagree, they ensured the popularization the PC. The computing world, like it or not, would not be what it is today without the efforts of Microsoft.

Now, you'll probably try and disagree (as other people have done in later discussions on this topic), and claim that Apple did that. I would suggest you go and do your research, and then actually try out Integer Basic in an emulator and then try AppleSoft Basic. The "soft" in "AppleSoft" is from Microsoft. The Apple ][ was a piece of shit (source: I owed one. I suffered the pain.) before they paid Microsoft to write the OS for them. Virtually every other early computer, that I'm aware of, ran some version of BASIC, and most of them were coded by Microsoft. And like it or not, being able to develop simply for a computer is what made them popular back in the early 80s.

So yeah, you should be grateful for what Microsoft has done for you.

cue flamebait tag.

Re:Go die (2)

TechyImmigrant (175943) | about 2 months ago | (#47067769)

> try out Integer Basic in an emulator and then try AppleSoft Basic.

Why in an emulator? I just run them directly on my Apple 2e. The Integer ROM is great because it comes with the mini assembler and sweet 16.

Re:Go die (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47067845)

> For one, though you will undoubtedly disagree, they ensured the popularization the PC. Personal computers were being sold throughout the 1980s, and there were cheaper entrants to the market (including Atari and Commodore) which were more advanced than comparable PCs right up until the early 90s. PCs excelled primarily because of the bus and drive expansion, and whatever DOS they'd originally shipped with was likely to become the market leader. > The computing world, like it or not, would not be what it is today without the efforts of Microsoft. It could be better, or we could have had a different dominant desktop OS provider that made fewer mistakes, and had it all more sewn up. Since this is what MS still want to do, why do you want to let them?

Re:Go die (2)

unixisc (2429386) | about 2 months ago | (#47067879)

Shouldn't the credit for that really go to Intel?

It was Intel, who in order to ward off the perceived threats they faced from PowerPC as well as other RISC vendors, as well as x86 clone makers - AMD, Cyrix... that they invested more in their fabs and R&D, and did what they could to make their boxes the most cost effective. In the long term, DEC couldn't sustain it for long, and neither could HP or SGI. Nobody made not just microprocessors, but equally cost effective peripheral chips the way Intel did, and that's what saw to it that computers were inexpensive. DEC made a valiant effort w/ their Multias and SGI w/ their Indys, but nobody could really come close.

Where Microsoft did help was in making their software adapt for SMP, multi-processing, multi-threading & the like. While they did ignore making RISC versions of their bestselling s/w, they did make their software adapt for more multi-threading applications - as did other vendors. As a result, Intel and AMD could both toss more cores into a CPU and get appreciable performance boosts. But the other OSs - Linux, the BSDs, OS-X also made good use of this as well.

Re: Go die (0, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47067601)

Bill Gates personally paid my $5000 to test this comment! Copy and paste this on 20 other Slashdot articles using internet explorer and he will pay you too!

Re:Go die (1)

Austerity Empowers (669817) | about 2 months ago | (#47067613)

They're doing a lot of good trying to recreate the market they killed in the first place!

Re:Go die (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47067785)

They're doing a lot of good trying to recreate the market they killed in the first place!

Obviously everyone will want an XBox One with Kinect support for all their computing needs.

Surface: the only Hope (1)

BoRegardless (721219) | about 2 months ago | (#47067207)

Stated the way it is in the lead in, that opinion may be the only logical conclusion.

MS needs hardware and needs an exclusive.

Surface tablets may be the ultimate crossover if it clicks.

Re:Surface: the only Hope (5, Interesting)

NewWorldDan (899800) | about 2 months ago | (#47067345)

They're a fantastic business machine. They really are.

But at the same time, Microsoft is losing a whole generation of users who are learning that they don't need Microsoft. I would argue that a lot of Apple's success today stems from the fact that they were the dominant machine in schools 30 years ago.

Kids today are running around with 7" tablets. Sure, they're infotainment, but they do everything on those tablets. Web, Skype, Netflix, they type up homework, and of course, play games. It is a major strategic mistake to ignore the 7" tablet market.

Re:Surface: the only Hope (2, Insightful)

avandesande (143899) | about 2 months ago | (#47067469)

Sure, these kids won't need Microsoft until they get a job. The surface is for corporate folks that need a portable computer to do work and are aware that carrying a laptop will make them look out of touch (pun intended).

Re:Surface: the only Hope (1)

lgw (121541) | about 2 months ago | (#47068033)

Your both right of course. MS is making a powerful play for the business market at the expense of the casual computing market. So far, anyhow - who knows what else they have brewing.

Re:Surface: the only Hope (4, Insightful)

jkrise (535370) | about 2 months ago | (#47067521)

They're a fantastic business machine. They really are.

How so? What fraction of business users have even considered Windows 8 and above for their desktops / laptops? Less than 5%, if that. A business machine that cannot run Windows 7 or Windows XP is dead on arrival.

Re:Surface: the only Hope (2)

ADRA (37398) | about 2 months ago | (#47067597)

Nah, there are hipsters and those who want a Mac because it has an image of cool that they want to emulate. The large majority of Apple users though are those that moved iPod->iPhone->iPad and have been tethered to that ecosystem for the past 15 years (or gathered into it at some point). Mind you, these are also people that have never used Mac's for work and are more or less forced to learn MS tools in high school, university or in the work force.

These factors aren't changing any time soon. Companies (except for hipsters in ghetto POS replacements, cash rich software companies, and graphics industries that are tied to proprietary Mac only products) generally don't invest in Apple for business, and I don't see that changing unless the value proposition changes significantly.

Where does this leave microsoft? I see their business pretty static for the long haul, and frankly, they should just adjust their business expectations. Not all software development companies can/should continually expand into new markets in the hope of increasing shareholder value. If I was MS, I'd secure shareholder value by locking into a holding pattern around product lines that make money while innovating incrementally sustaining their dominant positions in the markets they occupy. Constantly chasing the panacea of everything for everyone is and will continue to hurt their bottom line and errode their value.

Re:Surface: the only Hope (1)

postbigbang (761081) | about 2 months ago | (#47067757)

Apple is very user-focused, while Microsoft is very business-focused. Apple wants to control your experience very thoroughly, whether you like it or not. Microsoft is more laissez-faire.

You can't change three characteristics of current tablets: their form factors are convenient, but not that of a notebook or desktop, their keyboards have gradients of: suck, and their native power is curtailed for general purposes because of the form factor. As battery technology gets better, you can sustain more CPU vs battery drain.

But the keyboards have been shades of useless, unless you get a bluetooth keyboard or USB etc that allows for additional work product to be performed on a tablet.

Microsoft is entirely late to the game as you suggest, but tablets make more sense to their sense of their clientele and like many times before, they'll work doggedly to improve a product to better its appeal.

Were I a Microsoft shareholder, I'd be happy. But I also know their sins intimately, and I'll NEVER be a Microsoft shareholder from my sense of ethics.

Re:Surface: the only Hope (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47067865)

Nah, there are hipsters and those who want a Mac because it has an image of cool that they want to emulate.

And there are those who want a Mac because the hardware is decent, well designed, and it ships with a Unix and a GUI OS that works quite nicely?

Re:Surface: the only Hope (1)

unixisc (2429386) | about 2 months ago | (#47068067)

I agree that the majority of Apple users ain't the people who had them in school - those are probably Mac users. The majority of them are people who picked it up when iPads were introduced, got hooked on them, and spread the word. It's not so much the hip aspect here, as much as the fact that there are apps for just about every need on the iPad - which is more than can be said for Windows RT.

Microsoft surfaces would have to match or better the prices of laptops for them to take off. People ain't gonna compare them to iPads, although the converse may happen - people in the market for laptops may consider iPads.

Re:Surface: the only Hope (1)

MtHuurne (602934) | about 2 months ago | (#47067837)

They tried to go for the infotainment market with the ARM-based Windows RT, but it found very few customers, mainly because there are not many apps for it. A "Surface Mini" would only have a chance if it runs on x86 and I don't know how feasible it is to produce a small light x86 tablet that gets a decent battery life, while also being affordable and powerful enough to run Windows 8.

So I don't know if I would call this a long-term strategy or just facing the realities of today.

Re:Surface: the only Hope (3, Interesting)

lgw (121541) | about 2 months ago | (#47068097)

It still amazes me that you can't just run normal Windows on the ARM-based surface. The Windows kernel has always (well, the NT fork that is modern Windows) been built for multiple processor architectures. The whol C# infrastructure is as cross-platform in architecture as Java is (if not in CLR implementation availability). Ballmer must have really been off his meds when they didn't leverage those advantages to have "real Windows software" on the ARM.

But of course Ballmer's MS was all about ignoring the fact that legacy apps are all Windows has ever had going for it. People wrote for it because people already ran it for their legacy apps, and the cycle continued. Now what?

Re:Surface: the only Hope (1)

0123456 (636235) | about 2 months ago | (#47068211)

You can. There just aren't any apps for it (OK, I guess there are a few .Net apps that don't call native code).

Besides, Windows is old-fangled and dull, whereas Metro^H^H^H^HModern is the New Shiny.

Re:Surface: the only Hope (1)

theIsovist (1348209) | about 2 months ago | (#47068095)

As someone who had the macs in school as a kid, as well as macs in the school I'm at now, I think it's the sexy packaging more than anything else. All the school's computer's now are loaded with bootcamp, and are almost entirely run on the windows side. This is in a design school, where apple always had a foothold with the students. The shift came not from exposure while you, but from a smart understanding that computers don't need to be a bulky, beige box, and can be a status symbol.

Re:Surface: the only Hope (0)

symbolset (646467) | about 2 months ago | (#47067555)

They are selling it as a laptop. If Microsoft wants to sell laptops they should tell HP, Lenovo, Acer, Asus, Dell, Fujitsu, Toshiba, Samsung et.al. to piss off and sell an actual laptop. Not sell a tablet as a laptop. That is not going to save them any points with their hardware "partners". May as well start selling servers now too.

Re: Surface: the only Hope (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47068029)

I for one would buy a Surface Pro as the ultimate tablet / laptop hybrid, if it was $200 less.
The thing is that ONLY a freaking x86 machine allows you to browse THE WEB. Every ARM device is just a "cellphone browser" for simple mobile versions of pages.

And, Microsoft has always done this ... (5, Insightful)

gstoddart (321705) | about 2 months ago | (#47067213)

To Microsoft, everything is a PC which is going to run Windows and Office.

They've never really been able to see past that.

My personal desktop has never had Office (or open Office, or any office suite on it), because for personal purposes, I have simply never needed one. I use my tablet for infotainment and looking up stuff on the web when I travel. I don't use it for heavy work.

I'm not sure that most people want what Microsoft thinks is the tablet market. In fact, given the sheer number of less-powerful tablets out there that people are happily using.

Microsoft has ever really predicted much in the way of new markets or products, or led the way in innovation. They have mostly stuck with their tried and true "all roads lead to Office".

If I wanted a laptop, I'd buy one. I'm not convinced that what they're selling is what most people are looking for.

Re: And, Microsoft has always done this ... (4, Insightful)

tysonedwards (969693) | about 2 months ago | (#47067591)

Except, Microsoft is no longer making that much money from Windows. Their bread and butter is Office followed by their various server and software development products. Office gives them 16.2 billion in profit, Windows gives them 9 billion. So, office is *close* to double Windows in terms of supporting Microsoft's vision well into the future. Windows ubiquity is great for Microsoft as it makes things far easier for them, hence why Windows is now free for 8" and less devices as a way of trying to grab a portion of the Android marketshare. Xbox is cool, but then it only provides them with 800M. It does however create truckloads of good will towards them as it is a product that people really *WANT* to own. Try as they might, I doubt that they will ever get anyone lining up at their local BestBuy for a midnight Office 2015 launch. That want creates a halo for them where people are more willing to take a risk on one of Microsoft's other emerging offerings like Windows Phone or Surface.

Re: And, Microsoft has always done this ... (0)

gstoddart (321705) | about 2 months ago | (#47067649)

Their bread and butter is Office

Yeah, I know .. perhaps you missed the part where I said "all roads lead to Office"?

Xbox is cool, but then it only provides them with 800M. It does however create truckloads of good will towards them as it is a product that people really *WANT* to own.

Well, I like my XBox 360 ... but wanting to own an XBone? Not likely. Microsoft themselves pretty much made sure of that in the lead up to its release.

That want creates a halo for them where people are more willing to take a risk on one of Microsoft's other emerging offerings like Windows Phone or Surface.

Time will tell. I'm not sure people are flocking to either of those in huge numbers.

Re: And, Microsoft has always done this ... (0)

tysonedwards (969693) | about 2 months ago | (#47067783)

Definitely no midnight lines on either Surface or Windows Phone either just that people are taking a risk on them. Windows Phone is beating Blackberry at this point. Although in thinking about it, before long you may start counting Blackberries sold on one hand. It would be very interesting to see if Microsoft can hold the #3 spot should Tizen ever ship on something, let alone a Samsung flagship.

Re:And, Microsoft has always done this ... (1)

Jeff Flanagan (2981883) | about 2 months ago | (#47068039)

>I'm not sure that most people want what Microsoft thinks is the tablet market.
>In fact, given the sheer number of less-powerful tablets out there that people are happily using

Kids and people just looking to be entertained don't, but those of who want to get work done away from home and the office absolutely see the value in these full PC tablets.

With a non-Windows tablet, I have to remote into a home PC to do any actual work remotely, which creates the opportunity for my home network to be hacked. With a Win 8 tablet (not RT), I can take all my dev tools and projects with me wherever I go. I can also use it as an entertainment device that's at least as useful as the alternative tablets.

Nice title (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47067215)

Nice title this is -- Yoda

Right. (4, Insightful)

Wdomburg (141264) | about 2 months ago | (#47067235)

Don't think iPad. Think Macbook Air with a detachable keyboard.

Re:Right. (1, Insightful)

gstoddart (321705) | about 2 months ago | (#47067325)

Don't think iPad. Think Macbook Air with a detachable keyboard.

I've got a $30 bluetooth keyboard I use with my Nexus 7.

Other than essentially trying to sell a full power laptop which can have the keyboard removed (and which will likely have crappy battery life and still essentially be a PC) ... what are Microsoft bringing to the table?

Oh, that's right ... a full power laptop which can have the keyboard removed, which will likely still have crappy battery life AND it runs Office.

Re:Right. (2)

ArhcAngel (247594) | about 2 months ago | (#47067645)

trying to sell a full power laptop which can have the keyboard removed (and which will likely have crappy battery life and still essentially be a PC)

Are you familiar with the Lenovo ThinkPad Helix? [lenovo.com]

Re:Right. (4, Informative)

Missing.Matter (1845576) | about 2 months ago | (#47067741)

Battery life is at 9 hours, enough to get you through the day without recharging. Plus there is a keyboard with an extra battery in it that bring battery life up to ~13 hours. Even with that, the Surface 3 is still thinner and lighter than most laptops.

Re:Right. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47067351)

But it weighs less than having to carry an iPad *AND* a Macbook Air! ... please disregard the 9hr battery life vs ~12hrs + ~12hrs on the Apple devices. 9 is totally close to 24.

Re:Right. (2)

Wdomburg (141264) | about 2 months ago | (#47068225)

How many people are doing 24 hours of straight computing without access to an outlet?

Re:Right. (0)

symbolset (646467) | about 2 months ago | (#47067467)

This seems to be the product positioning strategy. It is going to take a lot more than waving your hand and saying "this is the Macbook and iPad you are looking for." Mainly because it isn't.

Re:Right. (1)

jkrise (535370) | about 2 months ago | (#47067603)

Think Macbook Air with a detachable keyboard.

How many Macbook Airs are used as business machines? Less than 2% at a guess. So the Surface Pro 3 can aim for less than 1% marketshare in the business machines, since unlike Apple, the brand has less charisma than a donkey.

Re:Right. (3, Insightful)

timeOday (582209) | about 2 months ago | (#47068239)

Don't think iPad. Think Macbook Air with a detachable keyboard.

That's a good starting point but not the hard part. The basic the problem with that is how to converge the touch-based and pointer-based (mouse/trackpad) paradigms. Apple hasn't even started yet. Microsoft took the plunge with Windows 8 and has taken a lot of bruises. Maybe it can't be done well; maybe Microsoft will make all the investment and then Apple will swoop in and beat Microsoft over the finish line with a breakthrough product. Or maybe Microsoft's convergence strategy will win. But sticking a keyboard on a touch device full of apps all designed around touch does not work well, and the same goes for sticking a touchscreen on a pointer-based OS and applications. They are fundamentally different because touch is less precise and so much slower to enter text.

I think the Surface Pro version of Office should have two modes: (1) "real" Office applications (not a re-write) for use with a keyboard and trackpad/mouse, and (2) Office Apps for viewing and light editing. Documents should open with the right one based on whether the keyboard is plugged in, and could get fancy about switching when the keyboard is folded out, etc. Other applications should follow this pattern.

PC and post-PC in one device (3, Insightful)

tepples (727027) | about 2 months ago | (#47067273)

This article about post-PC devices [theplatform.io] separates computing into "work", which it defines as focused activity, and "relationship-centric computing", essentially the digital version of social grooming [wikipedia.org] . Phones and tablets are purportedly better for "relationship-centric computing", while PCs are better for "work". It appears Surface Pro is intended to be portable enough and to have a mode simple enough for "relationship-centric computing" while being able to shift to "work" as needed.

Re:PC and post-PC in one device (1, Interesting)

symbolset (646467) | about 2 months ago | (#47067605)

Keep pitching that "Windows is for real work" idea. It is destroying the Mobile/CE business.

Multi-window display and precise text selection (0)

tepples (727027) | about 2 months ago | (#47067863)

Windows is for real work. OS X is for real work. X11/Linux is for real work. iOS, not so much.

In an operating system oriented toward focused activity, the user can display two applications at once, one displaying a document that the user is creating and the other displaying a document to which the user is referring. Despite tablet displays being well over twice as big as those of phones, very few not-Windows tablets support this. And in hardware oriented toward focused activity, the user can quickly and precisely position the insertion point in a text entry area. Let me know when these features become standard on mobile devices running not-Windows.

Re:PC and post-PC in one device (1)

MightyMartian (840721) | about 2 months ago | (#47067779)

It can do what it looks. For $900 I can buy a tablet and a notebook, with money to spare.

Lightweight (0)

tepples (727027) | about 2 months ago | (#47067895)

But will the notebook be as light to carry as this $900 device? This device is for people willing to pay a premium for portability. If you're willing to compromise on the CPU, you could always buy a Transformer Book for less.

You screwed us 8 times before (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47067317)

with your huge lawnmower dick. And now you are asking if we want to have dinner?

Re: You screwed us 8 times before (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47067627)

Did your mom teach you what lawnmower dick means? Surely she knows from experience

Good luck with that. (1)

ugen (93902) | about 2 months ago | (#47067321)

What was that about doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result?

Re:Good luck with that. (4, Insightful)

gstoddart (321705) | about 2 months ago | (#47067347)

What was that about doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result?

Dogged determination and perseverance?

Re:Good luck with that. (1)

kaiser423 (828989) | about 2 months ago | (#47067527)

Yup. I really think that this iteration has some legs. I couldn't have cared less for the first two, but....as an engineer I hate having my notebook and scanning it or taking pictures of my drawings, schematics, math or notes. I also hate that I don't have my files with me on the phone, but a laptop in a meeting is just obtrusive. Previous iterations weren't powerful enough with enough battery life and Windows 8 was a total mess (still is a mess, but reaching usability). I would really like to try one as a daily driver for a bit, because I think it could improve productivity quite a bit, but alas I don't think that's in the cards.

Re:Good luck with that. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47067549)

I would love a tablet/laptop in one, except its running windows 8. For the tablet side great, it makes a wonderful phone interface. On the laptop side I would rather cut my leg off than get another windows 8 pc in my house. I am actually looking at Linux as my future desktop, I never thought I would say that. How the mighty have fallen.

New product, same problems (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47067333)

Price!

The steps from tier to tier for processor, storage, and memory options are too convoluted and expensive. Apple is bad enough when paying for upgrades, but this is even worse.

$129 for keyboard is insane.

It is a laptop and a tablet (3, Insightful)

symbolset (646467) | about 2 months ago | (#47067383)

Meaning it is best at neither. Just muddled enough to offend everyone.

Re:It is a laptop and a tablet (1)

david_thornley (598059) | about 2 months ago | (#47067799)

Not as muddled as Microsoft marketing.

My wife is smart and technical, although she doesn't follow the same tech news I do. A few weeks ago, we went through a Microsoft store at the Mall of America. When we got out, I found she didn't know the difference between the Surface and the Surface Pro. Personally, I think this is a pretty big difference, but Microsoft seems to think it's not worth worrying about.

If Microsoft were clearer on these things, maybe people would be interested and buy more, and in particular wouldn't buy one when they meant the other and wind up annoyed.

False dichotomy (3, Informative)

pla (258480) | about 2 months ago | (#47067395)

Microsoft is hoping people will balance that cost against the cost of a work laptop plus a personal tablet.

I think Microsoft's target audience here started pretty damned small, and shrinks every day as "normal" tablets become more and more compatible with 3rd party peripherals.

Increasingly, I see people using a tablet exclusively, with some form of docking station to make it more convenient to use as a desktop device. They don't lug around a laptop and a tablet, they just have the tablet and maybe a PC back at the office if they need either some serious horsepower or multiple feet of screen real-estate. So okay, for more than the price of a tablet plus a PC, the top of the line Surface Pro 3 config addresses the horsepower issue, while still having a tablet-sized screen - Too little for too much and targeting too few as a bonus.

Don't get me wrong, I think MS has the right idea on this one, and may actually have led the curve for a change; but until they can also do it for under $300, they may as well not even have tried.

well (5, Insightful)

geekoid (135745) | about 2 months ago | (#47067403)

duh.
MS is leading the way to a place where you carry you computer all the time and just drop it into a cradle when you need a bigger screen.
Something that works for well over 80% of the populace.
I'm not a fan, but the iPad would be horrible to do that with. With it's in ability to shop more then 1 window at a time.

And I own an iPad, and I like it.

Re:well (0)

jkrise (535370) | about 2 months ago | (#47067643)

just drop it into a cradle when you need a bigger screen.
People who use bigger screens also use the mouse extensively (navigating, point and click, highlight, copy/paste) and a proper keyboard besides. One would rather suffer dental surgery than run Office apps on a tablet device running Windows 8+.

Re:well (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47067931)

I'm assuming the cradle with the bigger screen also comes with the usb ports needed to run a mouse... But the surface itself has that so it's basically a moot point.

Re:well (2)

david_thornley (598059) | about 2 months ago | (#47067707)

Except that the Surface Pro 3 with keyboard is going to cost a lot more than a medium-quality laptop and medium-quality Android tablet, both of which will be able to run Microsoft Office. Moreover, desktops are cheap. How is that cradle going to compare with a real computer? It spreads files out, but file-syncing services like Dropbox are also cheap.

It's a nice product, but it isn't obviously cheaper than each of its uses separately, and it's not going to be the best tablet, the best laptop, or the best desktop. It will have some market, but it isn't going to make sense for most people, not at its price.

Re:well (1)

MMC Monster (602931) | about 2 months ago | (#47067795)

duh.
MS is leading the way to a place where you carry you computer all the time and just drop it into a cradle when you need a bigger screen.
Something that works for well over 80% of the populace.
I'm not a fan, but the iPad would be horrible to do that with. With it's in ability to shop more then 1 window at a time.

And I own an iPad, and I like it.

Actually it would be fantastically good with a slight tweeking of the iOS UI. All you do is detect that the device is hooked into a keyboard dock and show the running tasks bar at all times. Unplug it from the dock and the tasks bar disappears.

A pretty good work device (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47067405)

I bought a Surface 2 (RT, not Pro), and I've been very pleasantly surprised at just how good a work device it is.

My uses, as an IT manager:
          note taking in meetings with OneNote
          reviewing documents (Word/Excel/PDF)
          presenting (PowerPoint)
          email (Outlook or Mail)
          web browsing
          cloud storage (OneDrive)
          Remote Desktop (Citrix Reciever)
          entertainment on airplanes: video, ebooks

Surface 2 does all of these well. Better than the iPad I had previously for the pure-work tasks, albeit somewhat worse for the 'entertainment' tasks. Since my focus for this device is work, I've really enjoyed it.

I think I'd like the SP3 even more, because I'd get all of the above plus Visio, although I'd have to check out the size/weight for myself.

If what you want is more 80% entertainment / 20% business, or if you are in a business where MS Office/Exchange/etc. are not critical, the iPad is hands-down better, but I think that for many business-types, Surface deserves a look.

Re:A pretty good work device (2)

hypergreatthing (254983) | about 2 months ago | (#47067455)

So, what does a surface RT do better than an android tablet?

Re:A pretty good work device (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47067653)

Mostly, runs MS Office. I'm going to generalize and say that most business use MS Office formats for editable documents and and PDF for non-editable. Being able to handle Word/PPT/Excel docs without running a risk of corrupting the formatting is both a small thing, and yet so very important.

Seconday, and kinda-sorta related: if your business needs live in the MS ecosystem (Office/Exchange/OneDrive/etc.), it integrates in a nicer fashion. Android's Exchange support is good, but Surface's is better. I can't cite exact 'works on Surface, doesn't work on Android' examples, but I own both (Surface 2, Nook HD+ w/CM11) and find that sometimes my calendar isn't quite in sync on the Nook, or the email address book isn't fully populated.

Finally, on the Surface RT, bitlocker is mandatory. That's been a real pain, frankly, but it also means that I don't worry so much about the device being stolen or misplaces. If that happens, I should be able to remote-wipe it before information is compromised.

Re: A pretty good work device (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47067659)

Not make u Google's bitch?

Re:A pretty good work device (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47067669)

Not be tied to Google in any way, for starters.

Re:A pretty good work device (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47067545)

Hello Microsoft marketing machine. No matter how much you tell us this, we all know Windows 8 is terrible...Sorry.

Re:A pretty good work device (1)

fermion (181285) | about 2 months ago | (#47068027)

Agreed, but the needed to do more work. For instance, they compared the Surface to a 13" Macbook Air because they could not get the specs down to an 11" Macbook Air. In fact the 12" Surface is about halfway between the Macbook Airs. The fact it leaves the 13" Macbook in the dust, as all the ad talk has said, is not that relevant.

More often than not, the choice of machine is going to depend on workflow. If you are MS products, then this machine is a good choice. If you are on Google Drive, then an Android tablet probably works best. My days often involves Emacs, LaTex, python, openoffice, and ocassionaly the Apple office suite, so a Macbook works well for me as the GUI interfaces to these are very well worked out.

The challenge for MS is to entice people who are not dedicated to the MS products to buy Surface so they become dedicated to the MS products, as Apple did with Macbook Air and Pro.

This is not going to do it. Corporate is not going to pay double for a surface and keyboard than for a laptop. The average person is not going to pay more for a surface than an 11" Macbook Air or an iPad or the knockoffs.

MS should have the cash and supply chain to build a tablet with keyboard for $600. This is something that people would buy and would put MS back in the spotlight. Of course at this price point, all the OEM people who complain vigorously. Which is the fundamental problem. Is MS a company that sells to consumers, or is it a company that sells to OEM. As long as it focuses on the later at the expense to the former, they will never have decent hardware at a good price.

Re:A pretty good work device (2)

BaronM (122102) | about 2 months ago | (#47068199)

Absolutely: Surface (RT/Pro) is a product for those ALREADY tied in to MS systems, not a product to entice new customers.

Thankfully for MS, in the business world, that's a pretty big market, so take it and run with it:

1. Remove the silly restrictions on joining the RT Surfaces to a domain and using them for business purposes.
2. Introduce Surface 3 (non-pro) @$500. Sell it at cost, if cost is less than $500. I don't care if it's ARM or x64, but keep everything that makes Surface 2 good and cut price to the bone. Make them so attractive that managers need to justify NOT buying them, not the other way around.
3. Bundle the full Office suite with all Surfaces, not just the RT version, and add Visio.
4. Bundle at least the basic touch keyboard with all Surfaces.

Basically, instead of trying to sell to the iPad market, embrace these as business machines that also happen to work OK for entertainment on the go.

Re:A pretty good work device (1)

jkrise (535370) | about 2 months ago | (#47068115)

My uses, as an IT manager:
                      note taking in meetings with OneNote

IT Manager that takes notes? Interesting.

                      reviewing documents (Word/Excel/PDF)

For every Manager that reviews documents, there are a 100+ business users that create and edit them. Very painful on a tablet, even a Surface Pro.

presenting (PowerPoint)
Again, a small fraction of business users.

email (Outlook or Mail)
Very painful without a real mouse and keyboard, you can attach them to a tablet, but that's make it more expensive and more cumbersome than a desktop at a third of the price.

web browsing
Again, painful on Windows*+ versions of the OS.

cloud storage (OneDrive)
again, this is far better on laptops and desktops with proper network cards.

                      Remote Desktop (Citrix Reciever)
                      entertainment on airplanes: video, ebooks

A 12" device is more of a hindrance for these use cases. On a tablet 10" form factor like the iPad would've been ideal.

Re:A pretty good work device (1)

unixisc (2429386) | about 2 months ago | (#47068133)

If someone has a Surface 2 Pro, can one run the legacy Wintel apps under Windows 8?

Nope! (1)

ADRA (37398) | about 2 months ago | (#47067411)

Try again MS. You have plenty of cash reserves to burn through, so good luck with that.

On the flip side, I want to say they third party market of tablet add-on's (cases/keyboards) is just horrible. Walk into any consumer electronics store and see 60000 ipad items, maybe 1-2 Samsung specific items, a few MS ones, and literally nothing else for any of the countless Android devices. It just means I don't buy a keyboard or whatever and these companies continue to believe that there's no market for them.

Re:Nope! (2)

oodaloop (1229816) | about 2 months ago | (#47067501)

Try shopping on the interwebs. I have a Nexus 7 3.0, and have had no problems finding a wide range of accessories on Amazon and ebay.

Re:Nope! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47068177)

Or a different store. When I bought my Nexus 7 I had a choice of several different cases and keyboards right there in the store.

Most likely it's an issue if you buy a $50 Chinese no-name Android tablet, because no-one's going to be building $50 accessories specific to it.

ipad (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47067415)

Why didn't/doesn't Apple do this with the iPad. I remember when the iPad was announced, I was really excited until I found that it ran a cellphone OS

Remember when? (1)

szmccauley (667273) | about 2 months ago | (#47067419)

Remember when Microsoft first demoed the surface concept, all those years ago? Man did they ever drop the ball under that Balmer guy. I haven't willingly bought a microsoft product for 13 years now, and even then it was grudgingly. Nothing will change that these days.

Ordinarily I'd be first to bash MS - BUT... (5, Insightful)

mmell (832646) | about 2 months ago | (#47067429)

...in this instance, they're actually pushing towards a lucrative market. There are many professionals (myself among them) who have long wanted what we once referred to as a "stylus form-factor" PC. They existed as far back as the early '90's, but at a ridiculously high price and with no effort to write software to take advantage of the stylus form factor. Obviously, it never took off back then.

Personally, the Asus Transformer got 90% of the way to what I was looking for back in the twentieth century. Microsoft's latest offering appears to go the last 10%. I'm a Linux geek personally, but I do need to be able to run MS-Office compatible software on whatever platform I use. Microsoft's pitch -- "runs all your favorite MS software on your device of choice" is actually a powerful incentive for marketing to professionals. If they are addressing the perceived shortcomings of the tablet form factor, I suspect they may well be onto something.

Not planning on ditching my Android devices anytime soon, nor installing Windows on my Linux PC's - but I can sure see a lot of professionals doing so just for the ability to more or less seamlessly integrate their mobile devices with organization infrastructure. I may not like MS software, but nothing integrates with a Windows-based infrastructure like MS-Windows - hardware platform notwithstanding.

Re:Ordinarily I'd be first to bash MS - BUT... (3, Insightful)

jkrise (535370) | about 2 months ago | (#47067751)

I do need to be able to run MS-Office compatible software on whatever platform I use. Microsoft's pitch -- "runs all your favorite MS software on your device of choice"

Ever tried running MS Office apps without a mouse?

Ever tried running your favourite MS software (I mean software developed using older versions of Visual Studio) on Windows 8+ versions?

Ever tried connecting a Surface Pro to your company's Active Directory and implementing GPO?

A $300 desktop does it very well, and a $500 laptop does it better, and is portable besides.

A tablet that doesn't win Windows 7 or XP is useless for business users.

Re:Ordinarily I'd be first to bash MS - BUT... (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47067969)

Ever tried connecting a Surface Pro to your company's Active Directory and implementing GPO?

I manage a few this way and they're completely identical to any other wireless windows device on our network - ie. completely trivial. I don't know what you're trying to get at.

Re:Ordinarily I'd be first to bash MS - BUT... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47068205)

Ever tried running MS Office apps without a mouse?

No...why would I since I can buy a travel keyboard/mouse?

Ever tried running your favourite MS software (I mean software developed using older versions of Visual Studio) on Windows 8+ versions?

I don't have a favorite MS software but all the software that needs to be run, runs just fine on the tablet so far (surface pro 2 as well as a Dell Venue 11 Pro).

Ever tried connecting a Surface Pro to your company's Active Directory and implementing GPO?

Yep, works just fine. What's your issue with it?

A $300 desktop does it very well, and a $500 laptop does it better, and is portable besides.

A tablet that doesn't win Windows 7 or XP is useless for business users.

$500 laptop? Uh, yeah I'd rather not have to replace it a year or two years from now. Comparing specs wise to a laptop, the equivalent laptop would be about the same price (even with the travel keyboard). Not only that but with the tablet (any tablet really, even an iPad, etc...) you get the "oh (s)he is 'cool' and has a tablet and the IT dept there is up-to-date!" factor that is huge with the executive/VPs type people.

But business users are not fools (0)

jkrise (535370) | about 2 months ago | (#47067439)

Only a foolish business user would willingly throw $700 for a device that lacks a proper keyboard, mouse or network card interface to the company's active directory managed network. Business users need Word, Excel and Outlook; they need to be able to run legacy apps developed years ago, that do not run properly if at all, on Windows 8 and above.

Unless business users can load Windows 7 on the Surface Pro 3, the device will lose another billion bucks for the beast from Redmond. No point having powerful hardware when the software sucks.

And So? (4, Insightful)

crackspackle (759472) | about 2 months ago | (#47067463)

The tablet PC is not new. It preceded the iPad and Android tablets by several years but the technology sucked. It's better now to the point that a tablet PC is workable and for my money, MS is proving the point well with the Surface Pro line. The iPad succeeded where the previous tablets failed because they reduced functionality down to media consumption only while taking advantage of the then more advanced technology to create a far more elegant design. It’s still not suited to real work while the Surface Pro actually is. I welcome it. I have an iPad and I hate having to switch to my laptop every time I think of some small bit of work I need to do. There is a huge market for a device like this among business users and less casual home users like me. I hope they succeed and if it brings them a windfall of new money. That’s exactly as it should be.

Will it run Linux? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47067499)

I might consider it, then.

Re:Will it run Linux? (1)

TechyImmigrant (175943) | about 2 months ago | (#47067843)

If it's Intel based, yes, as long as you control the secure boot keys.

I don't know about you lot... (4, Insightful)

CaptainOfSpray (1229754) | about 2 months ago | (#47067511)

but I don't want a separate device just to do Office...I want whatever device I use to be able to run "everything I use" so I can combine stuff, rework, sort, juggle, scrape and reformat all that stuff into one coherent work output. If, like the Surface, the other apps from other suppliers are either not present or unusable with a touch screen, it's dead in the water. And it's dead in the water if I have to buy again software I've already paid for on another platform. And don't say Cloud. Cloud is dead because using it makes me legally non-compliant.

They'd have to make the tablet an open platform (2)

Karmashock (2415832) | about 2 months ago | (#47067663)

I can build a PC from components that can be purchased. If I could the same with a tablet then microsoft might be able to get somewhere with recreating the PC.

Let me buy a tablet motherboard, a tablet CPU, a tablet memory chip, a tablet enclosure... and then push a tablet OS onto it... and yeah... the tablet might become very much like the PC.

But if I can't buy the components to build one then it never will be the PC.

A camal is a horse designed by committee... (1, Interesting)

erp_consultant (2614861) | about 2 months ago | (#47067683)

and so too is Surface. It's trying to do too much and ends up not doing anything very well. Who wants a 12 inch tablet? Nobody. How about a 12 inch laptop? Could be ok for some tasks but it's a crappy keyboard - and it runs Windows 8.

The Macbook Air, which it's being compared to, is a far superior productivity device than the Surface. It has a real keyboard included (and a good one too).

Sorry but I just don't see Surface as best of breed. I can see people buying them hoping to have some sort of magical all in one device and ending up bringing another tablet along anyway. Because the Surface doesn't cut it as a tablet.

7 inch tablets are the way to go if you're going to have one and MS made a huge strategic miss by not offering one. Larger tablets are dying off in popularity now so who is this thing marketed to?

Re: A camal is a horse designed by committee... (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47067829)

A camal is a word used by illiterates like you

wow you got that out of it? (1)

db10 (740174) | about 2 months ago | (#47067759)

Sounds like someone reads minds, or this is just a strategy statement/advertisement

Too Expensive (1)

trevc (1471197) | about 2 months ago | (#47067773)

I just looked at the pre-order page. These are just too expensive and the keyboard is an add on even at these prices. Make the 128GB model $649 and they might sell some.

This makes good sense (1)

paiute (550198) | about 2 months ago | (#47067793)

My greatgrandfather invented a trunk and a radiator to hook onto a horse.

Looks like a great product, (2)

BLToday (1777712) | about 2 months ago | (#47067825)

Looks like a great product if I only look at the specs and pitch. But unfortunately I already own a Surface with Touch Keyboard, and that has tainted my impression. The original Surface is slow, keyboard is doesn't work well, Surface needs a flat surface to actually work well, and the UX.

Improvements:
* Slow => fixed by using Intel.
* Keyboard => no longer the mostly useless Touch Keyboard
* I'm hoping it's actually usable in my lap

Still issues (general experience with Win8; 1 desktop, 1 Surface RT):
* UX: there's no way getting around it, Win8 is schizo. In theory, on a Surface, I would never need to go to the desktop. But I have to switch to the Desktop to change settings like sleep mode timer and the built in version of Office. Win8 will some time let applications will install tons of random icons to the Start Screen, but not include the important ones such as the actual application link. Weird.

Hover over Flash elements is a serious usability issue. It works maybe 30% of the time in touch interface, the other 70% I would have to reach for the keyboard and hover my mouse over the element to control it.

The color of tiles does not make any sense. The tiles waste too much empty space and the text is too small for quickly identifying applications. I'm not 18 anymore so I don't have eagle eyes.

Trying to restore even the Surface back to "factory" takes 2+ hours. Then at least another 2 hours getting it updated. Why?

Microsoft's profit center ... (1)

PPH (736903) | about 2 months ago | (#47067917)

... was its Office productivity software. Once this was not needed, then Android, iOS and any other platfor would do the job. To properly use Office apps, you need a keyboard. I don't mean poke out the occasional e-mail on a tablet. I mean create documents, diagrams, etc. in an environment where productivity counts. The attempt to push a touch screen interface on to content creators was demonstrated by the 'Windows Hate' reaction.

Tablets and PCs (OK, laptops too) are different markets, best served by different UIs and maybe operating systems. If Microsoft wants to resurect the PC, a tablet is the wrong form factor.

Not really a laptop replacement (1)

berchca (414155) | about 2 months ago | (#47067949)

It might seem fussy, but I don't really think it is: the biggest trouble with MS's claim that the Surface can double as a laptop is how poorly it fits on your lap. Barring a keyboard hinge, you have to hike the thing in close so that you can use the stand on the back, which, for me, is too close (arms bent like I'm mocking a chicken). Also, it doesn't allow me to get the proper angle of the screen, plus the whole device is really wobbly.

I guess this doesn't matter if you never put your laptop in your lap, but if you do, there are far better keyboards available for the iPad.

Re:Not really a laptop replacement (1)

berchca (414155) | about 2 months ago | (#47067995)

Whoops, I meant '_lacking_ a hinge', not barring...

Hit the nail on the head (3, Informative)

giltwist (1313107) | about 2 months ago | (#47067985)

I had used a Samsung Galaxy Tab 10.1 all through graduate school. It was great for me then because I did all my typing at my home desktop or in one of the university's many computer labs. I did not need a full computer to be mobile, especially when I've lost several laptops to damaged power jacks over the years. Now that I'm in the corporate world and need to be able to work on a report in a hotel or at a client's place of business, I needed something portable. However, I still wanted a tablet for personal use. The Surface Pro 2 filled exactly that niche. It's got honest-to-goodness Microsoft Office for when I need it and a pretty decent keyboard (if you disable the glitchy trackpad) to boot. At home, I disconnect the keyboard and watch Netflix in bed. The pen is even better for drawing than my Wacom tablet, because I can draw right on the screen. I'm a young, technologically-savvy professional. I'm the target audience for the Surface Pro line.

Obvious Advertisement (1)

lwriemen (763666) | about 2 months ago | (#47068009)

...is obvious. This is why I don't visit /. as much as I used to.

MS should focus on winnable battles (3, Interesting)

aussersterne (212916) | about 2 months ago | (#47068083)

The Windows battle is largely over, and they have lost.

On mobile devices, which are the most ubiquitous form of computing on the planet today, they are effectively out of the game for this round. Their only shot there is to become the next big innovator launching the next paradigm of computing—something that MS has never been able to do before.

In productivity computing, a decade ago it was still a Windows world, but I've seen shop after shop effectively go Mac in recent years. First the door is opened—and once employees and/or departments are able to opt for Macs to do their work, the balance goes from 90/10 Windows to 90/10 Mac in the space of one or two upgrade cycles. Apple significantly outpaced the PC industry overall in unit shipment performance over 2013 (particularly 4Q) and this matches what I'm seeing in business meetings across partnerships—senior reps from four companies are in the room and now the Windows guy is the odd guy out and everybody snickers a little. Or you're in a multi-hour videoconference on GoToMeeting and the one guy that's sharing a Windows screen rather than a Mac screen stands out like a sore thumb. It's the opposite of what you'd see over the '90s and '00s.

But Exchange and Office remain ubiquitous—more and more people in business are using a Mac but their Mac is invaribaly outfitted with MS Office (because iWork simply doesn't compare) and their entire business lives are accessed from Outlook. Finding ways to better integrate mobile Android/iOS offerings into their Exchange/Office universe would open a natural space for strong growth and continued dominance in critical business infrastructure. The focus on Windows and hardware is a head-scratcher.

The most worrying thing for Microsoft is that I've started periodically receiving OpenOffice/LibreOffice/Google Docs/Drive word processing and spreadsheet documents over the last year or so. That never, ever happened for the first decade and a half of my life in business (since about 1997) and now, suddenly, I've received about 20 documents like this this year from people at five different companies—without anyone mentioning it or even apologizing ("Hope you can open this!").

I don't know if the investment required to make a plausible attempt at reversing Windows' downward slide in market position is worthwhile. I suspect it's far more important for MS to shore up and grow their Exchange/Office business. Nobody is really challenging them yet in this space, but if a viable competitor were to emerge, the forces and trends related to Windows now pull *away* from Microsoft platforms rather than irresistibly toward them.

Well, duh (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 months ago | (#47068123)

No-one else is targetting that market (which is debatable, as I believe Asus, at least, produce something similar?), because it's a tiny market. People aren't suddenly going to drop their laptops, Android tablets and iPads to buy a Surface that costs twice as much as any of them and leaves them stuck running Windows.

This finally has me pulling the trigger (1)

holophrastic (221104) | about 2 months ago | (#47068129)

I've avoided tablets, laptops, and smartphones until now, purely because I can't possibly get any work safely done on any of them, and I've got zero interest in infotainment as recreation. I don't need to watch youtube videos of concerts -- I just go to the concerts.

But this is actually suitable as a minimal desk when I'm on vacation -- which means that I can stay on vacation longer with less cover. All I need is a car adapter and I'll be done.

Look at me, I'm finally buying a portable computer. Wow, 2014.

Failed combo (2)

EmperorOfCanada (1332175) | about 2 months ago | (#47068201)

I have seen many combo products in my life fall flat on their face. Basically if you try to be both you usually fail at being either. At this point people want their tablets for the consumption of things too big for their phones. So books, movies, slightly bigger games, and better web surfing. Few people want much more than basic consumption. With their laptop/desktops people want to create. This means a bigger screen, great input devices, and enough horsepower to handle the tools as most people are in a hurry to create content for school or work.

So people don't mind so much if their laptop is a bit big if it then doesn't get in their way of getting things done, such as hesitating, not being able to run some critical work related application, or running out of juice. And with this being a business/school tool cost is not a huge factor.

But with a tablet most people are doing one thing at a time so sheer horsepower is not needed, plus they are doing simplistic clicking and swiping so more than a touch screen isn't usually needed. So they want battery life, they want lightness, and generally not being work related it needs to be cheap.

So it looks like the new surface is the worst of both worlds, a compromised battery, compromised screen size, compromised input devices, compromised ability to run all applications, and a huge compromise on the price.

So I suspect that they are going to aim this at the "mobile professional" the reality being that the mobile professional who can afford a dataplan will not be doing much along the lines of content creation as they have people for that. So for the mobile professional they will want the lightest coolest tablet or large screened mobile phone around, with gobs of battery life.

This leaves the non-mobile professional who should just buy a laptop or desktop.

But I foresee a huge number of bought off news outlets blah blahing about how the surface will change the face of computing, and I also foresee a bunch of 2nd rate broadcast TV shows where they pull out their surface to show the crime photos or whatnot and one of the second rate stars will say, "Hey that is cool, I didn't know you could click the keyboard on like that, how very cool and available June15th."
Load More Comments
Slashdot Account

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?

Don't worry, we never post anything without your permission.

Submission Text Formatting Tips

We support a small subset of HTML, namely these tags:

  • b
  • i
  • p
  • br
  • a
  • ol
  • ul
  • li
  • dl
  • dt
  • dd
  • em
  • strong
  • tt
  • blockquote
  • div
  • quote
  • ecode

"ecode" can be used for code snippets, for example:

<ecode>    while(1) { do_something(); } </ecode>
Create a Slashdot Account

Loading...