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Ask Slashdot: Where Can I Find Resources On Programming For Palm OS 5?

Unknown Lamer posted about 5 months ago | from the civilized-pda-for-a-civilized-business-climate dept.

Portables 170

First time accepted submitter baka_toroi (1194359) writes I got a Tungsten E2 from a friend and I wanted to give it some life by programming for it a little bit. The main problem I'm bumping up against is that HP thought it would be awesome to just shut down every single thing related to Palm OS development. After Googling a lot I found out CodeWarrior was the de facto IDE for Palm OS development... but I was soon disappointed as I learned that Palm moved from the 68K architecture to ARM, and of course, CodeWarrior was just focused on Palm OS 4 development.

Now, I realize Palm OS 4 software can be run on Palm OS 5, but I'm looking to use some of the 'newer' APIs. Also, I have the Wi-fi add-on card so I wanted to create something that uses it. I thought what I needed was PODS (Palm OS Development Suite) but not only I can't find it anywhere but also it seems it was deprecated during Palm OS's lifetime. It really doesn't help the fact that I'm a beginner, but I really want to give this platform some life. Any general tip, book, working link or even anecdotes related to all this will be greatly appreciated.

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Not worth it (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47554639)

Don't waste your time. Learn iOS, Android or some other platform that isn't dead.

Re:Not worth it (4, Insightful)

cheesybagel (670288) | about 5 months ago | (#47554757)

Yes this. Especially Android. Since it is Java based you can use that knowledge to program server side apps as well.

Programming for an OS without memory protection is a nightmare.

Re:Not worth it (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47555239)

LOL

No memory protection is only a problem if you are a sloppy programmer. Seriously.

Re:Not worth it (2)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | about 5 months ago | (#47555335)

If you and everybody else responsible for the code running on the device aren't sloppy programmers, perhaps...

Even if your code is perfect, you still run the risk of having the other guy's program start scribbling over yours unless you feel like re-implementing absolutely everything whose behavior you don't entirely trust.

Re: Not worth it (4, Informative)

maccodemonkey (1438585) | about 5 months ago | (#47555425)

Android Java knowledge is reusable for... Server side development?

The biggest time suck for learning a new platform is the platform itself, not the language. If we're comparing platforms, Android is like programming on the moon, and server side development is like programming on Saturn. A new programming language should only take a week or two to learn. The platform takes years. Android doesn't have much in common with a web platform. Unless Tomcat got an API to do mobile UI and touch handling, and Android got an API for failover and distributed services, they don't really have much in common at all.

If a developer is scared to cross to any platform because they don't want to be multi-lingual, they're doing it wrong. Java, Obj-C, Swift and C# are all pretty much the same thing, just with some syntax changes. Heck, there is even a family tree there. Java was based on Obj-C, and C# was based on Java. Swift is based on all of them.

Re: Not worth it (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47554835)

Seriously agree 100%.

Find an open source project that could use coders.

Heck, I hear Linus is pretty upset about the kernel right about now.

Re: Not worth it (2)

narcc (412956) | about 5 months ago | (#47554903)

This is Slashdot, right?

This is the last thing I expected to find here.

Re:Not worth it (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47555201)

As much as it may interest you to do this, I highly recommend NOT developing software for PDA devices made before 2008, as they are battery-backed RAM, not flash. So if you crash the device, you will lose everything on the device.

Re:Not worth it (1)

baka_toroi (1194359) | about 5 months ago | (#47555241)

Yup, it already happened to me while I tinkered with it. Fortunately I was just a sync away from recovering all the data and software (not that it was invaluable in any way). The only things that don't get restored are the Java VM and the Wi-fi drivers.

Be ready for a lot of frustration (4, Insightful)

ZorinLynx (31751) | about 5 months ago | (#47554641)

PalmOS is a rather antiquated system. No memory protection, no native multitasking, clunky APIs...

Depending on your personality type and the coding experience you have, it's either going to be a TON of fun, or you're going to want to smash and break things on the very first night.

Or maybe both. :) I don't have any pointers, but as a former Palm OS user, godspeed.

(Palm IIIxe from 2000-2005, Palm Treo 650 from 2005 to 2009)

Re:Be ready for a lot of frustration (1)

armanox (826486) | about 5 months ago | (#47554711)

I remember my PalmIII fondly. And my Palm V that replaced it. And my Zire, that was the last one I had (although the V had some niceties the zire did not). Or maybe I'm just remembering them for what they were then, and not compared to iOS and Android. I bet if I booted the old PocketPC in my desk I'd go nuts (and not in a good way)(PocketPC 2003).

Re:Be ready for a lot of frustration (3, Interesting)

pushing-robot (1037830) | about 5 months ago | (#47554779)

Palm had one thing going for it, at least in the early days: excellent battery life. With no wireless, no background serivces, and no traditional backlight, battery life was measured in days—or weeks—or months!

While they don't hold a candle to modern devices in every other respect, I loved being able to tap away at the thing forever without ever worrying about finding a charger. And the EL backlight [wordpress.com] was pretty darn cool (though it made you really hate dimly lit rooms)...

Re:Be ready for a lot of frustration (1)

msobkow (48369) | about 5 months ago | (#47555019)

You've got to be kidding. My Palm III ate batteries like a fiend. I was lucky if they lasted a week, and I hardly used the thing. I'd guess I got about 6-7 hours of functionality out of a set of batteries. And I'm not talking rechargeables, but good quality alkalines.

Re:Be ready for a lot of frustration (2)

Bing Tsher E (943915) | about 5 months ago | (#47555203)

In my experience the power consumption of the Palm III varied significantly. I think there was a switchmode power converter of some sort in it, and it could be good or very, very bad, depending on individual device. Probably related to the capacitor in it. That's how I vaguely remember it, anyway.

Re:Be ready for a lot of frustration (2)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | about 5 months ago | (#47555351)

The 'conduit' synchronization concept was pretty good as well (in an environment where 'eh, it's a computer, just give it TCP/IP and call it a day.' was not yet practical). The actual sync client, at least for Windows, was a total piece of shit; but conceptually the 'conduits' model was about the nicest flavor of PDA synchronization available before the rise of handhelds with their own data connections. PalmOS never handled those particularly neatly.

Re:Be ready for a lot of frustration (2)

robinsc (84714) | about 5 months ago | (#47555391)

Also the UI was really good for getting things done quickly....
it was an organizer first and foremost which today's multi-functional devices are not and hence they always suffer for some form of identity crisis.

Re:Be ready for a lot of frustration (1)

SumDog (466607) | about 5 months ago | (#47554935)

I had an old Handspring Visor, Palm Treo and Centro. I came here to say this.

I had the IDE for a while. No multitasking (you could have timers that ran background tasks) and you could read/write directly into other programs' memory spaces. It was so easy to crash that OS. It's seriously only a few levels above MS/PC DOS with a really crappy C API. I'm really glad we're so far past those devices.

Re:Be ready for a lot of frustration (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47555071)

When it comes to pointers, you'd want to avoid 0x00000000

Re:Be ready for a lot of frustration (1)

hcs_$reboot (1536101) | about 5 months ago | (#47555325)

I used CodeWarrior at the time, for some time, and then switched to prc-tools. CW was pretty buggy.

Some advice (-1, Troll)

kamapuaa (555446) | about 5 months ago | (#47554649)

Read a book. Pick up a new hobby. Go to the beach. Learn a language!

Try (2)

MouseTheLuckyDog (2752443) | about 5 months ago | (#47554657)

Re:Try (4, Funny)

sootman (158191) | about 5 months ago | (#47554799)

SPUG: "The group is on hiatus."

The most recent "previous meeting" mentioned was 12/5/2006, and there's a link at the bottom that says "Palm is hiring" if you want a hint of when that page was last updated.

Even the link to the article about the death of Palm is two years old now. Seriously man, it has run down the curtain and joined the choir invisible.

Re: Try (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47554815)

Hiring?! Dude, I am SO mailing them my LinkedIn info.

Re: Try (2)

Bill, Shooter of Bul (629286) | about 5 months ago | (#47555047)

Sucker! I'm sending a telegram via the pony express! I'll get that job, before you can lick that stamp!

Re: Try (2)

Noah Haders (3621429) | about 5 months ago | (#47555153)

don't forget to include a link to your geocities page.

Look harder. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47554659)

let it go (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47554661)

Just let it go and sell it, and buy a raspberry pi with a touchscreen, its a lot of fun. Open source and a lot of docs.

Re:let it go (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47554693)

wow generic linux on a shitty computer, why would you pay money for that, go find an old laptop at the dump, least it could become something useful

Re: let it go (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47554805)

An old laptop pulling 150-200w or more. Sure makes sense. 200w can power 4 50" LED TVs now...

Re: let it go (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47555009)

more like 60 but whatever

Re: let it go (1)

viperidaenz (2515578) | about 5 months ago | (#47555571)

I'm using an old laptop. It pulls about 10W with the screen off, 20W with it on full brightness.
About 17W average usage which gave it 3.5 hours battery life back in the day. It's about 12 years old now.
I don't think any laptop has ever been produced that consumes more than 150W.

There used to have some that came with 160W PSU bricks back when they put Pentium 4's in them, but that also charged the battery at the same time.

Re:let it go (1)

viperidaenz (2515578) | about 5 months ago | (#47555589)

The Palm has similar CPU performance compared to a Raspberry Pi.

Where Can I learn (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47554713)

Where can I learn how to send smoke signals?

Why? (3, Insightful)

pushing-robot (1037830) | about 5 months ago | (#47554715)

It's hideously slow and limited by today's standards, the standards are horribly out of date (802.11b anyone?) the ten year old battery is surely shot, and the platform is dead, dead, dead.

If you're looking for a cheap hackable device, get a no-frills Android tablet. If you're looking to get into mobile development, get any decent smartphone.

Still, if you really want to work on that old Palm, you should still be able to find the Garnet OS Development Suite.

Re:Why? (1)

baka_toroi (1194359) | about 5 months ago | (#47554867)

Still, if you really want to work on that old Palm, you should still be able to find the Garnet OS Development Suite.

I'm looking for it but can't find a working copy. Most of them point to www.accessdevnet.com which looks like just a Wordpress front end for some random posts.

Dear Slashdot (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47554727)

I want to waste my time hacking an old platform that no one uses anymore but I'm a total noob so I'm entitled to make everyone help me.

Re:Dear Slashdot (2)

baka_toroi (1194359) | about 5 months ago | (#47554823)

You are 100% right in criticizing me. Actually, I wasn't expecting this to get to the frontpage.Nonetheless, I thought Slashdot was the best place to ask. Many times I've seen pieces of news about Amigas and usually they're warmly received (are they not outdated?). I'm wondering why so many people are saying stuff like "let it go", "it's useless", "learn a language." Other people are linking me to LMGTFY as if I haven't spent hours looking for working links.

Don't get me wrong, maybe they're right and I shouldn't spend/waste my time learning about a dead platform, but at least I'd like to hear their rationale.

Re:SlashBate ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47554871)

You are 100% right in criticizing me. Actually, I wasn't expecting this to get to the frontpage.Nonetheless, I thought Slashdot was the best place to ask. Many times I've seen pieces of news about Amigas and usually they're warmly received (are they not outdated?). I'm wondering why so many people are saying stuff like "let it go", "it's useless", "learn a language." Other people are linking me to LMGTFY as if I haven't spent hours looking for working links.

Don't get me wrong, maybe they're right and I shouldn't spend/waste my time learning about a dead platform, but at least I'd like to hear their rationale.

Front page news.. lol

Re:Dear Slashdot (3, Insightful)

NotInHere (3654617) | about 5 months ago | (#47554961)

Many times I've seen pieces of news about Amigas and usually they're warmly received (are they not outdated?).

The Amigas are outdated. However the stories are warmly recieved, because Amiga has been popular, and lots of people still have one in their basement. Palm OS wasn't this popular. People love their Amigas, Amiga became a part of culture. This has many reasons, not just popularity. The fanboy group for Palm OS is smaller but I doubt it doesn't exist. Its not mainstream culture though.

I don't know why you shouldn't "waste" your time learning about a dead platform. As long as you see it as your hobby. Some people like reenactments, and dress in historic uniforms to "play" historic battles. Others know every part of the steam engines used from 1860 to 1892 by Santa Fe. So why not Palm OS?

Re:Dear Slashdot (1)

Noah Haders (3621429) | about 5 months ago | (#47555177)

I don't know why you shouldn't "waste" your time learning about a dead platform.

I think the only reason why not is that time is a finite and limited commodity and if you spend it on one thing then you can't spend it on another thing.. people are saying if you're going to learn something new and arcane you might as well learn something that they deem more applicable. this is ultimately them speaking about their own life limitations like kids or what not; obviously you (you, the submitter not you the parent) are the only one who can make that decision about yourself. But I believe that this answers the question that you (you, the GP, also you, the submitter) posed about the rationale.

my personal reaction is that it's a horrifically extravagant use of precious spare time, much like buying solid gold cat toys is an extravagant use of discretionary income. but I'm speaking from my own life situation.

Re:Dear Slashdot (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47555307)

I don't know why you shouldn't "waste" your time learning about a dead platform.

I think the only reason why not is that time is a finite and limited commodity and if you spend it on one thing then you can't spend it on another thing.. people are saying if you're going to learn something new and arcane you might as well learn something that they deem more applicable. this is ultimately them speaking about their own life limitations like kids or what not; obviously you (you, the submitter not you the parent) are the only one who can make that decision about yourself. But I believe that this answers the question that you (you, the GP, also you, the submitter) posed about the rationale.

my personal reaction is that it's a horrifically extravagant use of precious spare time, much like buying solid gold cat toys is an extravagant use of discretionary income. but I'm speaking from my own life situation.

It's not *your* "spare time" he's wasting, is it? How often do you watch TV? What a waste of "precious spare time". Do you have other hobbies, surf, ride a bike, etc? What a waste of "precious spare time" you could be using to write new software for iOS or Android (both of which might be gone themselves in a decade - geez, what a waste of precious spare time...).

Honestly, there must be something else you could do in your precious spare time rather than programming... you could volunteer at the local homeless shelter, help an old lady across the street, etc.

Re:Dear Slashdot (1)

Bing Tsher E (943915) | about 5 months ago | (#47555255)

You misspelled the word 'cult' in your post.

It's true that the PalmOS devices weren't owned by a lot of people in their adolescence, and the developers for PalmOS were much more similar to those into Mobile development (in it for the money, not the enjoyment of hacking code), so PalmOS don't have the same sort of cachet.

PalmOS in earlier versions would be much easier to find resources for; the Dragonball processor was fairly popular in it's day, and you can reach out to all the 68K platforms to a degree. Still, a Dragonball developer I knew back then referred to it as "Draggin' Balls."

Re:Dear Slashdot (4, Informative)

narcc (412956) | about 5 months ago | (#47554983)

See, old stuff that *they* like is important. Working on that stuff is a great idea.

Working on old stuff that they don't care about is clearly a waste of time.

Anyhow, here's a start for you: GCC PRC-Tools [sourceforge.net] Which is likely what you want. Ron's Obsolete Palm OS Computing Information Page [nicholson.com] has a working link to HotPaw, which is better than nothing.

You'll also want to take advantage of the Wayback Machine [archive.org] to see what's behind all the dead links you're surely running in to.

Re:Dear Slashdot (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47554987)

http://libgen.org/get.php?md5=B658CD6D4A26F599478993F83079894C
http://libgen.org/get.php?md5=F4D0F2F5AC2DB3555FEDBC7DF89F0EEF
http://libgen.org/get.php?md5=a93f90a844c7f3441e654c5d07b26502
http://libgen.org/get.php?md5=0BA17A0070FE2E28F0B89E67B61F8479
http://libgen.org/get.php?md5=2c4ae6771b743bd1db165899d3398548

Re:Dear Slashdot (4, Informative)

Charliemopps (1157495) | about 5 months ago | (#47555015)

You are 100% right in criticizing me. Actually, I wasn't expecting this to get to the frontpage.Nonetheless, I thought Slashdot was the best place to ask. Many times I've seen pieces of news about Amigas and usually they're warmly received (are they not outdated?). I'm wondering why so many people are saying stuff like "let it go", "it's useless", "learn a language." Other people are linking me to LMGTFY as if I haven't spent hours looking for working links.

Don't get me wrong, maybe they're right and I shouldn't spend/waste my time learning about a dead platform, but at least I'd like to hear their rationale.

Because Amiga, C64, Early DOS and UNIX's were great and successful. For me, all that stuff was my childhood and messing around with it is like going to a garage sale and finding my old favorite GI Joe figure or something. PalmOS5 failed right out of the gate. There's nothing to be nostalgic about.

If you want to do some cool hobby stuff (and I don't blame you, I do that sort of thing all the time) I recommend the following:
RaspberryPI or one of the several 3rd party variants out there: It's basically a small PC with a UART (hardware interface with buttons) You can turn it into a media player, an Audio DSP, a "car computer" whatever you can think of.
http://www.raspberrypi.org/ [raspberrypi.org]
http://www.pcworld.com/article... [pcworld.com]

Arduino is a micro controller. Not to be confused with the RPI. An arduino will teach you how to solder :-)
You can run scripts written in C, and control lights, relays, sensors, etc... You can build something that automatically waters your garden, turns on your lights, feeds your pets... basically anything you can script.
http://www.arduino.cc/ [arduino.cc]

AX84 is a website that has a host of amplifier projects. They are all tube based. Why tube? Well a lot of us think it sounds better, but that's a long argument. Even if they don't, it's how electronics started and if you want to know how things were done originally... and why that lead to how things are done now, Tubes are a great way to start. It's like learning to build a campfire by rubbing 2 sticks together. Yea, you could just throw a road flare on a dead tree, but somethings are just worth doing the old way. If you're not a musician, there's a Stereo amp near the bottom.
http://www.ax84.com/sel.html [ax84.com]

Then there's steam engines... There's no collective site for that, but I've done them and they are fun. No codding involved unless you count the valves ;-)
These are super fun though. Imagine a device that can generate power from any source of heat. Even mirrors reflecting the sun. I recommend starting on youtube.

Anyways, there are lots of "useless" projects you can do that will have a far larger community and be far less of a waste of time in the end. Good luck.

Re:Dear Slashdot (1)

baka_toroi (1194359) | about 5 months ago | (#47555087)

This is a really great post, I really appreciate it. Even though I've read about the RPI and Arduino I never thought about doing something with them. The Arduino particularly interests me but I'm not sure what I would do with it. Thanks!

Re:Dear Slashdot (1)

Bing Tsher E (943915) | about 5 months ago | (#47555269)

The Arduino is cool because you can 'steal' from it's software stack so easily. That is, you can buy one of the low end boards that has a socketed Atmel processor and treat it like a development board/part burner. Then, the stuff you 'develop' on it you can fork off from the overpriced Arduino hardware by just unplugging the processor chip out of the board and onto your own perfboard circuit.

Re:Dear Slashdot (1)

gnu-sucks (561404) | about 5 months ago | (#47555467)

Also, look at the beagle bone. These are about $50 and they come with analog i/o and digital i/o, but unlike a micro controller, they run a full operating system (linux). Lots of fun!

Re:Dear Slashdot (1)

Bill, Shooter of Bul (629286) | about 5 months ago | (#47555053)

Thats an OSNews kind of question. Ask it there, you'll get a better response.

Re:Dear Slashdot (1)

camperdave (969942) | about 5 months ago | (#47555161)

I thought Slashdot was the best place to ask. Many times I've seen pieces of news about Amigas and usually they're warmly received (are they not outdated?).

That's nostalga kicking in. The Amiga was an amazing piece of technology back in the day; a powerful, multimedia capable, grown-up computer for those who cut their teeth on the Commodore 64 and Vic-20 computers. A last generation, PalmOS 5 based PDA is not going to tug at the nostalga heartstrings. Furthermore, the warmly received stories are about people who have accomplished something with the old hardware, who have gotten their machines to do something above and beyond what people thought they were capable of; not stories about noobs who dug their dad's old computer out of the attic and are trying to get it going again.

I'm wondering why so many people are saying stuff like "let it go", "it's useless", "learn a language." Other people are linking me to LMGTFY as if I haven't spent hours looking for working links.

I think there is a parallel phenomenon to XKCD's Today's Ten Thousand [xkcd.com] . It is a lot easier to say "You're doing it the wrong way", than to try to understand what you might be trying to actually do, and provide guidance accordingly. Sadly, when people do that, both you and they miss out on a little piece of life.

Consider why you are doing what you want to do. I know it can be exciting to get a free whatever, and spend lots of time trying to get that whatever running. It can seem like a golden opportunity, but it can be a really easy way to waste a boatload of time. If you are not locked in to getting the Tungsten E2 going; if it is just an excuse to get into programming something, perhaps you should consider something like the Raspberry Pi, the Arduino, or the BASIC Stamp. These systems are meant for hacking, have active user and developer communities, boast loads of open source software, and are relatively cheap, as opposed to the closed source, unhackable Tungsten E2.

Having said that, I don't have any concrete advice to give you. I have never done any programming for portable devices, although I used a Handspring Visor regularly up until a few years ago when the case fell apart. PalmOS was already considered dead before that point. Perhaps you could try the Wayback Machine [archive.org] for some leads.

Ignore the critics and the trash: (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47555195)

And a lot of the comments on slashdot nowadays are just graduates of digg or reddit or what have you.

This has the exact same nostalgia factor as a c64, amiga, apple ii, old atari, bbc micro, etc.

Additionally the lack of memory protection will likely make you less sloppy than the average java 'hack' here, since if they fuck up their app crashes, but if you fuck up the whole system goes down.

Additionally: This is one of the few recent Ask Slashdot's that really emphasizes what Ask Slashdots used to be: Crowdsourcing help for something that was esoteric enough that the only way you'll pull it off is getting lucky and grabbing some institutional knowledge or maybe code/developer resources from people who... *ACTUALLY DEVELOPED FOR IT*.

As to the rest of you, thanks for bringing slashdot down to the level of the rest of the internet, 'editors' included :)

Re:Dear Slashdot (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47555251)

To defend the Amiga: People held on to their Amiga's as long as possible.

This was not true of any PDA. Sure I can still turn on my Windows CE devices and maybe goof around with a gameboy emulator on it, but the amount of effort required just to get it into working shape is substantial (1. Sync software, 2. Proprietary cables) just to get started may require loading a virtual machine with Windows 95, and you'd need a USB to Serial port cable.

Where as to get the Amiga running, you just flip the switch, and assuming the CRT monitor still works, off you go. Your only other option is a CRT TV with analog connections.

The thing is, technology moves on, becomes less power intensive, and more powerful. People still hang on to PC's with 5.25" drives because they *might* want to retrieve data they worked on 20 years ago, or they kept their tax records on, or something of that nature. But for all intents, you may as well just copy all the data from all the disks to a flash drive, and re-copy to new drives every 3 months if you have your heart set on preserving it forever. Then just emulate the original hardware. You can emulate anything up to a Pentium 200Mhz on a modern PC without needing virtualization extensions. Then there is also M-disc http://www.mdisc.com/what-is-mdisc/ which will last quite a while, but is only supported by drives using LG's parts, and LG's pretty awful at reliabilty. If you're going to save stuff to mdisc, you may as well buy two drives, and never open one of them.

Re:Dear Slashdot (1)

baka_toroi (1194359) | about 5 months ago | (#47555281)

Just to be clear: my intention wasn't to bash the Amiga, at all. I never owned it but most of the stuff I saw on it was mind-blowing for the technology of that time. I love listening to Module files (MODs).

Re:Dear Slashdot (1)

Anrego (830717) | about 5 months ago | (#47555405)

I think much like many tech groups I "grew up with", slashdot has gone from a large number of high school and university students hacking stuff in their basement to predominately professionals working out in industry. Some of the "hacker spirit" has vanished and been replaced by practicality, and you see these kinda responses to projects we all probably would have found cool 10 years ago.

I'll admit that even I have fallen into this kinda thinking. I find myself approaching my hobby stuff the same way I approach a problem at work, and sometimes it worries me. I miss the old me who thought he could rewrite everything "a billion times better".. the current me that acknowledges maturity as a vital component of systems engineering is kinda dull at times.

I too have a tungsten E2, and I even did a little programming for it. As others have said, it's a really shitty platform and equally shitty device. That said, sometimes it's fun to get old stuff working for the hell of it. The problem you will run into is exactly what you are seeing.. the documentation, tools, and community that would have helped immensely is mostly gone. Don't really have much in the way of advice. Archive.org might help, but chances arr you are going to have to re-learn or just plain discover on your own how to make shit work.

prc-tools (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47554735)

Writing ARM-native code on Palm OS 5 was never easy. I used prc-tools and Peal to write pssh (which needed ARM-native code for fast crypto and terminal emulation).
http://prc-tools.sourceforge.net
http://sealiesoftware.com/peal/
http://sealiesoftware.com/pssh/README.code

Re:prc-tools (2)

gl4ss (559668) | about 5 months ago | (#47554939)

wow an actual response to the question, mod up.

also some guys were telling him to just learn java.. there's a java vm available for palm os 5
http://thepiratebay.se/torrent... [thepiratebay.se]

Re:prc-tools (1)

Bing Tsher E (943915) | about 5 months ago | (#47555205)

Is there a FORTH interpreter? That could just plain clench it.

Re:prc-tools (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47555493)

I used PEAL for Frodo emulator and it worked fine. There is also the native PalmOS 5 reverse engineered SDK http://www.mobile-stream.com/devzone.html for building native arm binaries, this avoids m68kARM parameter swapping and allows some lowlevel API.

Check your local library, or Amazon (4, Informative)

sootman (158191) | about 5 months ago | (#47554773)

My local libraries all have tons of outdated (5- to 15-year-old) books on a variety of computer subjects. You just might get lucky and find the one you need at yours.

Or, check Amazon. Lots of people list lots of useless old books for basically nothing plus shipping. First hit for "palm os programming" is this [amazon.com] meaty tome, from 2002, for 30 cents plus $3.99 shipping. Bang, zoom, $4.29 later, you're set. Palm OS Programming for Dummies [amazon.com] , 22 cents plus $3.99. Whatever version you need is out there somewhere.

And they usually come with interactive CD-ROMs. Interactive, my friend. Check the descriptions on Amazon and make sure they're included.

Re:Check your local library, or Amazon (5, Informative)

cpollett (959521) | about 5 months ago | (#47554855)

I taught a course on this in Spring 2004 and my notes are still online at: http://www.cs.sjsu.edu/faculty... [sjsu.edu] (albeit handwritten and scanned). The book I was using was Palm OS Programming Bible, Second Edition. John Wiley & Son. by Lonnon R. Forster. which you could probably pick up cheap from amazon or Ebay.

Re:Check your local library, or Amazon (1)

baka_toroi (1194359) | about 5 months ago | (#47554881)

Yesterday I got a copy of that book. Thanks for your input! I will be checking your notes.

Re:Check your local library, or Amazon (2)

cpollett (959521) | about 5 months ago | (#47555083)

I also noticed that the old PalmOs documentation is largely still viewable on Internet Archive: https://web.archive.org/web/20... [archive.org]

Re:Check your local library, or Amazon (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47554941)

My local libraries all have tons of outdated (5- to 15-year-old) books on a variety of computer subjects. You just might get lucky and find the one you need at yours.

Or, check Amazon. Lots of people list lots of useless old books for basically nothing plus shipping. First hit for "palm os programming" is this [amazon.com] meaty tome, from 2002, for 30 cents plus $3.99 shipping. Bang, zoom, $4.29 later, you're set. Palm OS Programming for Dummies [amazon.com] , 22 cents plus $3.99. Whatever version you need is out there somewhere.

And they usually come with interactive CD-ROMs. Interactive, my friend. Check the descriptions on Amazon and make sure they're included.

Are you serious? The books aren't going to have the tools he needs to develop apps. No header files, no libraries, etc. The CD/DVD ROMS will also not have those items in all probablility as they were licensed through HP. Me thinks the OP just needs to pitch that device. His intentions are in the right place, but his choice of platform to try to resurrect is untenable.

Friend or fiend? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47554809)

Only one letter difference!

Put it in a museum.

just a thought... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47554859)

I'm not an expert, but I thought Palm OS became webOS when HP took over... webOS isn't dead, lots of folks still coding for it and there are several phones still using it. and the good old hp touchpad uses(d) it. apps are still being written for it. I also seem to recall webOS going to open source shortly after HP dumped the tablet (http://www.openwebosproject.org/) . my suggestion is to look into that. then once you've filled up no that go check into iOS, and Android. then make your own choice about what to code... :D

Re:just a thought... (1)

baka_toroi (1194359) | about 5 months ago | (#47554875)

As far as I can tell they're completely different. WebOS was supposed to be the evolution for Palm devices but it looks like they developed it from scratch rather than inherit all the backend stuff from Palm OS 5.

Re:just a thought... (1)

spire3661 (1038968) | about 5 months ago | (#47554905)

Palm OS was a real contender....My wife finally retired her Palm Pre Plus last week. :(

Re:just a thought... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47555249)

I thought I had been the last one! I retired my Palm Treo 755 in 2013...it died. Was a great phone, and had all my data from the PalmPilot Professional days...then the 3, then the V, then the m500, then the m505, then the Treo 755p.

They really screwed up when they had no upgrade path to the Pre. Lots of us loyal Palm folks would have stuck with them. Instead I kept the old 755p till it died. Of course, as I now love Android, I'm not so sure the death was a bad thing.

Re:just a thought... (1)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | about 5 months ago | (#47555395)

I vaguely remember some talk about an emulator at one point; but aside from that the two OSes have essentially zero in common. WebOS was (in my opinion) sadly underrated and died tragically young (I wouldn't be surprised if the situation has improved markedly; but back when 'Android tablet' meant 'Motorola Xoom running 3.0' it wasn't even fair how superior webOS was... Now that LG has it, it's probably gone to shit.); but it had absolutely no relation to palmOS, other than organizational.

What you're doing is akin to learning Latin (1)

chromaexcursion (2047080) | about 5 months ago | (#47554889)

From an old limerick:
Latin is a dead language, dead as can be. ...

Some previous posts mention other current platforms. Try those. Palm is dead.

side note. a 2E that sill works? Mine died years ago.

Re:What you're doing is akin to learning Latin (1)

baka_toroi (1194359) | about 5 months ago | (#47554897)

Great analogy. So why are some people still learning Latin then?

Re:What you're doing is akin to learning Latin (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47554963)

Great analogy. So why are some people still learning Latin then?

Because they want to be doctors, lawyers or some type of paleontologist or other scientist that deals with classifications. Those are the only reasons to learn Latin. It's dead as a spoken language but Latin is still used heavily in science and law. He would have been better off going with Ancient Greek. That's a dead language!

Re:What you're doing is akin to learning Latin (2)

excursive (2823185) | about 5 months ago | (#47555079)

Latin is still spoken in the Holy See. If you want to learn to speak it, you could try Rosetta Stone or Transparent Language. Or learn to speak it in Rome! http://www.slate.com/articles/... [slate.com]

NS Basic... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47554893)

NS Basic is still around and should be supported. Not free, but simple and powerful enough...

archeology (4, Funny)

PopeRatzo (965947) | about 5 months ago | (#47554917)

Where Can I Find Resources On Programming For Palm OS 5?

I'm pretty sure they were written in cuneiform on clay tablets, so you might want to learn the language of the Anunnaki

I might be wrong. Maybe they were written in Middle Egyptian on papyrus.

Either way, you could start by asking a very very old nerd. If you can find an old pay phone, wait for someone with long greasy grey hair to pick it up and start whistling into it. Make sure you have some jelly worms on hand, but not the green ones.

Too soon (2)

jlv (5619) | about 5 months ago | (#47554937)

Come back in 10 years when it can be called a "classic" platform.

As a former developer on the Palm OS (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47554951)

It was great in it's time (esp the Palm III in 1999)

But it's time is over it is really hard to program compared to more modern systems.

I moved onto Windows Mobile and later Android years ago.

You should too.

If you want to work on something that is 'different' might I suggest SL4a or Android NDK.

Good luck (3, Interesting)

TheRealMindChild (743925) | about 5 months ago | (#47554965)

I had the same happen with Codewarrior for Sharp Zaurus. Metrowerks was sold and Freescale erased all traces of it. Can't be found anywhere, legit or warez. I even contacted Freescale and they said they looked everywhere they could, but they said it was nowhere. Gone forever

The best thing about Palm was the task manager (3, Interesting)

sandbagger (654585) | about 5 months ago | (#47554971)

If someone would code that for iOS i'd pay. It was the best to-do list application ever.

Apple's Reminder's is so useless I can't imagine why any effort was expended coding it.

I still have Palm Treo ringtones if anyone wants (2)

sandbagger (654585) | about 5 months ago | (#47554979)

Reach out to me.

Once my phone went off and an older man next to me began roaring with laughter when he heard the Treo ring tone. Ah well, it was great in its day.

You don't have the expertise, don't bother (0)

0xdeadbeef (28836) | about 5 months ago | (#47555025)

If you have to go to Slashdot to use Google for you, you'll never be capable of mastering the toolchain, much less learn the arcane bullshit necessary to run native ARM code on a Palm device.

NT: Let it go man. It is over. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47555039)

NT: Let it go man. It is over.

4! (0)

Tablizer (95088) | about 5 months ago | (#47555069)

Now, I realize Palm OS 4 software can be run on Palm OS 5, but I'm looking to use some of the 'newer' APIs.

Come on, if they do the job, who cares. It's like wanting Mozart over Bach because Mozart is "newer". They are both dead worm food. (Please, no music "decomposing" jokes.)

Re:4! (1)

Bing Tsher E (943915) | about 5 months ago | (#47555227)

Well, in a hundred years or so people will still want to listen to Bach and Mozart's music. And preferring Bach or Mozart's music. Can't necessarily say the same for Nirvana or The Sex Pistols (RIP Sid), even if there are people who would whip into a frenzy for the fact being stated as so.

Re:4! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47555257)

I don't understand why people feel the need to discourage someone who obviously wants to do something for a non-supported platform. It's not as if he's doing it as a business plan. Would you tell someone who wants to play golf that the sport is losing favor, and they should avoid it, and take up paddle boarding instead?

You could try CASLsoft 4.3 (2)

excursive (2823185) | about 5 months ago | (#47555101)

It's free from http://windows.novellshareware... [novellshareware.com] . There are also other app-building tools out there. When I had a Palm, I used several programs from Tealpoint Software. Their web page is dead tonight, but the Google cache copy from yesterday shows dates from 2013. Perhaps your question provoked a huge run on Palm software and their server couldn't handle the load. https://webcache.googleusercon... [googleusercontent.com] Palm had the best calendar program (DateBk, not to be confused with DateBook) I've ever used on any platform.

Sure (4, Informative)

CODiNE (27417) | about 5 months ago | (#47555123)

Since you're a C guy, there's http://onboardc.sourceforge.net/ [sourceforge.net] that compiles right on the Palm Pilot. A bit tough by modern standards, if there's an API call you want that's not in the standard header file you have to find the ROM address for it and put it in yourself.

Much easier but of course limited is http://smallbasic.sourceforge.net/ [sourceforge.net] which runs on Palm OS and has a lot of little games in the forums.

arduino (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47555137)

The palm os is good and dead, kinda too bad palm chased their tails for so long increasing performance to what people wanted. That e2 is worth a couple bucks at best. As I remember the best things for it was Dreadling (port of wolfenstein), and the liberty gameboy emulator (gambit). Programming is going to be very very painful. If you want to program on some "vintage 1990" electronics, maybe try a arduino and learn some c++. The old 8bit atmega has a great 1990 feel to it.

I think, therefore (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47555149)

At first I was like, not worth it. Go get Android.
Then I thought that lots of people would say that. And it sounds a little dickish.
Then I googled the Tungsten E2. Released: 2005. Ugh. Not worth it. Go get Android.
Then I thought hey, maybe this guy just wants to do some tinkering/fun programming. Like I used to do back in the day. And that distant little of spark excitement alights.

Then I thought: Holy shit, somebody is actually using Slashdot for its intended purpose!

1997 (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47555321)

perhaps time is cyclical good luck

Not exactly what your asking for. (1)

allaunjsilverfox2 (882195) | about 5 months ago | (#47555367)

A quick search shows that, at one point at least, you could run linux [sourceforge.net] on it. Not very useful, but it's still mildly interesting.

Hell no! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47555371)

As an "old" mobile developer from the early Palm days who still has CodeWarrior on his Windows XP VM so I can still compile old Palm code if necessary I say, "Hell no!". I loved Palm development in its day and I can't bring myself to delete the VM that holds it, but you'd have to pay me $200 an hour to develop with it again.

OnboardC ! (1)

robinsc (84714) | about 5 months ago | (#47555379)

Try onboardc which is an onboard c compiler for palm... basically you can program the palm in c from the palm. How cool is that ?

Re:OnboardC ! (2)

robinsc (84714) | about 5 months ago | (#47555383)

http://onboardc.sourceforge.net/

Re:OnboardC ! (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 5 months ago | (#47555523)

there is also onboard pascal http://www.ppcompiler.org/?lng=en , it even has native arm compiler, also the aditional tools (like BIRD) are good for on device resource hacking

Hopefully you;ll find some help here (4, Informative)

phrackthat (2602661) | about 5 months ago | (#47555417)

Check out Code Project - lots of great articles on Palm programming: http://www.codeproject.com/sea... [codeproject.com]

Go to Sourceforge - it may take a while to pick through the weeds, but you should find some useful projects to examine the code:

http://sourceforge.net/directory/os%3Apalmos/?q=palm&sort=update

C programming for Palm: http://onboardc.sourceforge.ne... [sourceforge.net]

http://www.vb-helper.com/review_palm_ides.html -- a review of Palm IDEs - may give you some ideas

http://porganizer.sourceforge.net/ -- Palm Organizer has the essential files for creating a Palm program if you look at the bottom of the page

Try the 1stSource forums, check out the menu on the left for various Palm models and you'll be sure to find some useful info:

http://www.1src.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=156

For some fun - and perhaps some code to review:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/phoinix/ -- Gameboy emulator for Palm

http://sourceforge.net/projects/palmapple/?source=recommended -- Apple II emulator for Palm

More emulators to consider: http://the-gadgeteer.com/2004/... [the-gadgeteer.com]

http://www.codejedi.com/shadowplan/castaway.html -- Atari ST emulator

http://frodopalm.sourceforge.n... [sourceforge.net] -- commodore 64 emulator

Good luck and have fun!

Duplicate story... (1)

BigIrv (695710) | about 5 months ago | (#47555495)

from 1998!!

Don't. (2)

ledow (319597) | about 5 months ago | (#47555527)

Take a look at some Palm code.

If the hideous restrictions and limits there don't put you off, then find out what they recommend to compile.

Flashy IDE's probably aren't going to be easy to find, there weren't many around in the first place and the majority of stuff I know is just command-line compilers which can plug into any IDE (if you're brave enough).

All I remember of Palm coding was having to break C files into tiny parts, jam them together and hope the individual object files never went over a certain size because the linker had to play all kinds of tricks to load them.

Take a look at something like this:

http://www.chiark.greenend.org... [greenend.org.uk]

The base code of which is generally easy to port (Simon Tatham's PORTABLE Puzzle Collection). That Palm version is quite a pain to compile even with the right tools.

SDK available here: (2)

tlambert (566799) | about 5 months ago | (#47555579)

SDK available here:

http://gl.access-company.com/p... [access-company.com]

Perhaps next time you will read the acquisition history for the software you are trying to find in the Wikipedia article, and then go to the OpenSource/Downloads section of the company website for the current owner of the technology yourself?

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